Black man killed by police in Minnesota - new revelation

S7DiscoDown said:
You would want an AR15 and body armour as standard equipment in the states.

This is a country where people have them for home defense and can carry a concealed weapon in a super market (if you have a licence). You can legally buy a Barrett 50 sniper rifle for 11k. Why would anyone need one for garden 'plinking'. It goes through an inch of steel😕
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Not sure I agree with that. Body armour yes, that is designed to save lives, not end them. Does a patrol officer really need an ar15?

It is estimated that about 80% of police officers in the US fire their pistol once on active duty. Once you go to 2 firearm incidents it becomes much more rare and almost never heard of more than 3 times.

20 years ago it was normal for a police officer in a career to never draw his weapon.

Something has clearly gone wrong in the last 20 years and it isnt the proliferation of guns. That has always been the case.
 
SuperStu said:
That's my point though. The soldier didn't comply, but made sure to keep his hands visible, and stayed alive. If he'd followed their instructions and move his hands down to his side to undo the seatbelt it could well have gone differently.
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Differently yes

He could have been shot

OR

He could have released himself and got out of the car and nothing more would have happened

We can only go by what we know, conjecture just muddies the waters
 
red_harrington said:
He could have been shot

OR

He could have released himself and got out of the car and nothing more would have happened
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's a substantial risk isn't it? That was my point. I just don't think it's the sort of thing where you can say it's always best to do X.
 
red_harrington said:
Differently yes

He could have been shot

OR

He could have released himself and got out of the car and nothing more would have happened

We can only go by what we know, conjecture just muddies the waters
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He had been pepper sprayed and clearly could hardly see, he would have to take longer to fumble about for the buckle
 
red_harrington said:
He was polite and calm but he didn't do what the police were telling him to do.

Which made the police angry, and heightened the tension. Not saying the police were in the right, but that's what happened.

Dunno about you but if someone's pointing a gun at me, I do as I'm told.
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Daniel Shaver did what the police asked him to do, even the most difficult of commands, and was executed in the corridor of a hotel. It's clearly not enough to just do as police tell you as you're having a navigate a maze of paranoia and fear within the police officers themselves in the hope they don't end your life.
 
red_harrington said:
So what would you have done?
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its such a difficult situation. Do as you are told , and then be shot because one of the officers "thought" you were going for a weapon when your hand disappeared from sight.

I think keeping your hands in sight and out of the window is a smart move under very stressful circumstances. Yes, you are not following instructions, BUT there is no way you should be shot for disobeying an order by keeping your hands in plain sight and posing absolutely no threat that can be interpreted as you reaching for a weapon (instead of the interior door handle)

I have seen footage where drivers have opened the door from the outside just to keep their hands visible. They can deal with the seat belt once the door is open and the officers have a greater line of sight.

Still totally fooked up in my opinion.
 
MFP said:
Daniel Shaver did what the police asked him to do, even the most difficult of commands, and was executed in the corridor of a hotel. It's clearly not enough to just do as police tell you as you're having a navigate a maze of paranoia and fear within the police officers themselves in the hope they don't end your life.
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They had to reload to continue shooting them were acquited.
 
Laughing said:
Not sure I agree with that. Body armour yes, that is designed to save lives, not end them. Does a patrol officer really need an ar15?

It is estimated that about 80% of police officers in the US fire their pistol once on active duty. Once you go to 2 firearm incidents it becomes much more rare and almost never heard of more than 3 times.

20 years ago it was normal for a police officer in a career to never draw his weapon.

Something has clearly gone wrong in the last 20 years and it isnt the proliferation of guns. That has always been the case.
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I don't think anyone 'needs' an AR15 unless it's in a warzone or military .

The issue is that if gangs and general bad uns have them then a 9mm isn't going to cut it. I am sure the police would prefer not to have them. The quick second decisions they have to make daily must be terrifying.

That would mean de arming the whole country. It will never happen.
 
red_harrington said:
He could have released himself and got out of the car and nothing more would have happened
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As soon as his hand disappears down to release the belt and the officer thinks or fears he is going for a concealed weapon...

And the trouble is that the officer would probably get off. In this country our police gunned down Jean Charles de Menezes on the Tube without challenge and no one ever faced a court for it.
 
S7DiscoDown said:
You would want an AR15 and body armour as standard equipment in the states.

This is a country where people have them for home defense and can carry a concealed weapon in a super market (if you have a licence). You can legally buy a Barrett 50 sniper rifle for 11k. Why would anyone need one for garden 'plinking'. It goes through an inch of steel😕
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To be fair if I had the money and I was allowed to I'd probably buy a .50 cal Barrett too. 😎

The speed limit in this country is 70mph but you can still buy a Nissan Skyline GTR which will do 180mph with the limiter taken off it for under 10k.

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America will never get rid of its guns. Just tighten up the laws, make them harder to purchase with testing and exams and licenses and bump the prices up. You shouldn't be able to buy them from Walmart ☹️
 
S7DiscoDown said:
I don't think anyone 'needs' an AR15 unless it's in a warzone or military .

The issue is that if gangs and general bad uns have them then a 9mm isn't going to cut it. I am sure the police would prefer not to have them. The quick second decisions they have to make daily must be terrifying.

That would mean de arming the whole country. It will never happen.
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I have no idea what percentage of police apprehensions require assault rifles. Not many I would guess.
 
SuperStu said:
I don't really know tbh. Like I said in my first post it's a very dangerous dilemma. I don't think there's a right answer.
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This is it, there is no single answer because every situation is unique.

The point I am making however, is that in the first instance you will always lower your chances of being shot by the police if you bow your head, keep your mouth shut and simply comply.

As soon as you start opening your mouth saying things like 'Why have you stopped me' then you're opening dialogue which could be seen by the policeman as confrontation.
 
red_harrington said:
This is it, there is no single answer because every situation is unique.

The point I am making however, is that in the first instance you will always lower your chances of being shot by the police if you bow your head, keep your mouth shut and simply comply.
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In truth you should never expect to get shot by a cop unless you are armed and threatening them.

Ignoring their instructions doesn't give them carte blanche to execute you.
 
Laughing said:
In truth you should never expect to get shot by a cop unless you are armed and threatening them.

Ignoring their instructions doesn't give them carte blanche to execute you.
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Nobody said it did but as discussed it's a numbers game - 1 in 1000 if you're black.

Those odds can be reduced.
 
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