Going from bad to worse for the Labour Party

BoroMart said:
most of us are not extremists, correct, most of us are on a spectrum.but I would argue more people are getting to the extreme ends of those spectrum through rhetoric, particularly the right. Socialism was never a dirty word, an insult, not until the last 15 years or so. Individual socialist policy wasn't purported to be full on socialism until recently. The right wing economic free marketeers (Actually mostly libertarians to be honest) have got control of the media, have weaponised the internet, and misinformation and thus we have shifted right. More and more people are being radicalised. I lived in the US in the late 90s and I see the same attitudes towards anything centrist and left of centre being banded about as I saw then. Capitalism in the hands of libertarians leads to a broken society, where even the centrists, the pragmatists and the voice of reason are demonised as raging lefties. I see it every day.
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I agree with a lot of that but the left has a stranglehold over the internet. It’s “fake news” that it’s infected by right or far right visions. I have worked for Silicon Valley tech companies for years and it is controlled by leftist ideologies and warped libertarian values. The left controls people’s minds without true power
 
BoroMart said:
most of us are not extremists, correct, most of us are on a spectrum.but I would argue more people are getting to the extreme ends of those spectrum through rhetoric, particularly the right. Socialism was never a dirty word, an insult, not until the last 15 years or so. Individual socialist policy wasn't purported to be full on socialism until recently. The right wing economic free marketeers (Actually mostly libertarians to be honest) have got control of the media, have weaponised the internet, and misinformation and thus we have shifted right. More and more people are being radicalised. I lived in the US in the late 90s and I see the same attitudes towards anything centrist and left of centre being banded about as I saw then. Capitalism in the hands of libertarians leads to a broken society, where even the centrists, the pragmatists and the voice of reason are demonised as raging lefties. I see it every day.
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I pretty much agree with every word, it backs up what I think about changing the narrative. What's the point about talking about stuff that no one takes any notice off. We need small wins, use the media to get at BJ. There is poverty in this country we won't improve it by talking about the past.
 
Londons_Moggie said:
I agree with a lot of that but the left has a stranglehold over the internet. It’s “fake news” that it’s infected by right or far right visions. I have worked for Silicon Valley tech companies for years and it is controlled by leftist ideologies and warped libertarian values. The left controls people’s minds without true power
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Great minds
 
Londons_Moggie said:
I agree with a lot of that but the left has a stranglehold over the internet. It’s “fake news” that it’s infected by right or far right visions. I have worked for Silicon Valley tech companies for years and it is controlled by leftist ideologies and warped libertarian values. The left controls people’s minds without true power
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does it though, I mean I'm not sure if you are talking financial or social left here? I don't see the internet propogating the need for a communist or socialist state, far from it.

Libertarianism is not politically left, if anything it describes those that lead the far right, the Farages, who will argue that the EU is a political body that crushes our free spirit, then when we get out of the EU, starts a party to argue that british politics (ie government) is crushing our free spirit. People like him have no answers, no solutions, they're just good at pointing out how a system of governance isn't perfect, while ignoring any benefits. What they actually want is lower taxes, less responsibility for keeping the state working, less acceptance that a society is better as a coherant and hollistic whole rather than looking after ones self.

Zuckerberg is an example of someone with massive power over the information age, yet is certainly not a radical ideological leftie, far from it. He's quite libertarian and economically right wing.
 
BoroMart said:
does it though, I mean I'm not sure if you are talking financial or social left here? I don't see the internet propogating the need for a communist or socialist state, far from it.

Libertarianism is not politically left, if anything it describes those that lead the far right, the Farages, who will argue that the EU is a political body that crushes our free spirit, then when we get out of the EU, starts a party to argue that british politics (ie government) is crushing our free spirit. People like him have no answers, no solutions, they're just good at pointing out how a system of governance isn't perfect, while ignoring any benefits. What they actually want is lower taxes, less responsibility for keeping the state working, less acceptance that a society is better as a coherant and hollistic whole rather than looking after ones self.
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The internet is at its core a libertarian socialist system. You never see far left ideologies seen as such or challenged on the web. Anything you wish to do, however dark, can be carried out on the dark web. It is the epitome of libertarianism and should always remain as such. The right controls power mostly because they run economies better but the left influences society so much more than people realise without getting into power. Most societal change comes from the left but they rarely run the country.
 
r00fie1 said:
There`s an element of truth in that, but only when capitalism allows it to happen.
After the War, the economy was in ruins [though big industrialists had pocketed millions from making munitions and killing machines- sounds familiar]
Capital benefited from spending to rebuild infrastructure - by nationalising it.
Capitalism is happily managed in War - time. A "command" (?) economy? - its like a guaranteed pay day for the owners.
After the war they needed the state to manage the rebuild, until it repaid the people by handing them the debt.
Capital decided it could manage - with the complicity of the Treasury via the Bank of England - having been revived by the state with public money.
The Labour Party history is littered with the corpses and lost souls whose only intent was to build a fair and just society.
All is not lost....(to be continued)..;)
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Yes, understand where you are coming from.
 
Labour's problem is that it appeals/ed to two very different type voters. I'm sure I'll irk a few but here we go:

Socially Conservative White working class voters in the North and the Midlands that had been anti-immigration. Labour felt they could never support Brexit due to the undercurrent of why a lot of their core voters voted leave. The party became more Liberal but the voters didn't.

Middle class urban types that, yes, are very woke but are subconsciously anti-white working class and don't understand them. A lot of these are London based and born and with London's white working class all but gone the disconnect grows even bigger.

Labour can't please both but feels more in tune with the second group. I guess now they're trying to appear a little more socially Conservative to win over the first, hence Starmer and patriotism.

I think a bigger problem is Labour and the public they represent have changed, as has the wider socio-economic situation nationally. They're in a bit of a bind and I'm not sure how they get out of it. That's not even including losing Scotland.

Facing a huge and powerful right wing media doesn't help either.

Just my view.
 
BoroMart said:
does it though, I mean I'm not sure if you are talking financial or social left here? I don't see the internet propogating the need for a communist or socialist state, far from it.

Libertarianism is not politically left, if anything it describes those that lead the far right, the Farages, who will argue that the EU is a political body that crushes our free spirit, then when we get out of the EU, starts a party to argue that british politics (ie government) is crushing our free spirit. People like him have no answers, no solutions, they're just good at pointing out how a system of governance isn't perfect, while ignoring any benefits. What they actually want is lower taxes, less responsibility for keeping the state working, less acceptance that a society is better as a coherant and hollistic whole rather than looking after ones self.

Zuckerberg is an example of someone with massive power over the information age, yet is certainly not a radical ideological leftie, far from it. He's quite libertarian and economically right wing.
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Again I agree, but you never hear Tories talking in such a conferluted manner. Get back to saying Boris is a crook, the Home Secretary a right wing bigot. Corruption, hatred of the state ...
 
Londons_Moggie said:
The internet is at its core a libertarian socialist system. You never see far left ideologies seen as such or challenged on the web. Anything you wish to do, however dark, can be carried out on the dark web. It is the epitome of libertarianism and should always remain as such. The right controls power mostly because they run economies better but the left influences society so much more than people realise without getting into power. Most societal change comes from the left but they rarely run the country.
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Is it? It's a technology for sharing of information. It is used by political actors from all sides, governments have control over their citizens access to it. I think you are romanticising it as something it is not. I'd argue against the right run economies better, you just need to look at economic deficits under Tory governments in this country. It's one of those fallacies such as the royals prop up our tourism and tax is theft.
 
Londons_Moggie said:
I agree with a lot of that but the left has a stranglehold over the internet. It’s “fake news” that it’s infected by right or far right visions. I have worked for Silicon Valley tech companies for years and it is controlled by leftist ideologies and warped libertarian values. The left controls people’s minds without true power
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The Internet is a tool for information. It has no political leanings and owned by noone, it does however allow for those with the most money to project information they wish for people to see.

The vast majority of people scratch the surface of the Internet through other media such as YouTube, Facebook, News providers, Twitter etc. This group will not read past a headline or question what they see, some will even share it on other media and spread disinformation further (see Starmer mis-quote thread).

Increasingly anyone who does delve into the Internet to question what they see is labelled as "woke", an attack designed to stifle debate, belittle free expression and create binary thinking. This is how the elite ensure they remain elite in the age of easy access, free information.
 
BoroMart said:
Is it? It's a technology for sharing of information. It is used by political actors from all sides, governments have control over their citizens access to it. I think you are romanticising it as something it is not. I'd argue against the right run economies better, you just need to look at economic deficits under Tory governments in this country. It's one of those fallacies such as the royals prop up our tourism and tax is theft.
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Yes you’re right but it is 100% controlled by the left. Most leftists think that their power only comes from controlling government. That is fundamentally incorrect. Our society is controlled by the left more so since the advent of the internet. Our economies are controlled by the right
 
Chris_Boro said:
The Internet is a tool for information. It has no political leanings and owned by noone, it does however allow for those with the most money to project information they wish for people to see.

The vast majority of people scratch the surface of the Internet through other media such as YouTube, Facebook, News providers, Twitter etc. This group will not read past a headline or question what they see, some will even share it on other media and spread disinformation further (see Starmer mis-quote thread).

Increasingly anyone who does delve into the Internet to question what they see is labelled as "woke", an attack designed to stifle debate, belittle free expression and create binary thinking. This is how the elite ensure they remain elite in the age of easy access, free information.
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The internet has influenced leftist values far more than those from the right. The reason why so many marginalised groups have found a voice and changed society is due to the internet giving them a platform. social media platforms are essentially leftist propaganda machines that drive the way our society operates. We may have a Tory government but we have a society that the left has far more influence over
 
Chris_Boro said:
Increasingly anyone who does delve into the Internet to question what they see is labelled as "woke"
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using terms like woke is one of my pet peevs, it's playing the man not the ball, it's intellectual cowardice. It's an attempt to undermine the concept of empathy.

It isn't bad to want your fellow human beings not to be bullied, harassed and abused. Woke is used to undermine say LGBT equality, to make sure people that are in that community shouldn't have the same rights to a happy life as everyone else. Woke is expressly kept to undermine 'progressive' attempts for equality. The thing is in the 1960s you would be called woke for wanting to arrest pedos or for raising money for starving africans, or for saying a restaurant cannot refuse to serve black people.

Woke to me is label on the person that uses it, it indicates that the person is losing touch with their empathy.
 
Same_as_before said:
What a load of Baloney. We own our houses, most people work, most people go on holiday, I can ring the doctors and get an appointment. Where is this Socialist utopia? You are talking as if it's the 30's .
I don't know anyone who works more than 40 hours a week.

Who are this working class?

We, Labour, need to grow up and change the narrative. Improve the NHS, stop moaning about Brexit, talk a language that Blair's Mondeo man understands, put the Hammer and sickle away.
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Good afternoon.
Thanks for your contribution.
Forgive me, but you must be responding to someone else`s post as I didnt mention any of the subjects you raise?
Perhaps your inference came from somewhere else?
Mine is a philosophical observation and a comment on the Party`s historical role.
I hope that provides clarity.
 
BoroMart said:
using terms like woke is one of my pet peevs, it's playing the man not the ball, it's intellectual cowardice. It's an attempt to undermine the concept of empathy.

It isn't bad to want your fellow human beings not to be bullied, harassed and abused. Woke is used to undermine say LGBT equality, to make sure people that are in that community shouldn't have the same rights to a happy life as everyone else. Woke is expressly kept to undermine 'progressive' attempts for equality. The thing is in the 1960s you would be called woke for wanting to arrest pedos or for raising money for starving africans, or for saying a restaurant cannot refuse to serve black people.

Woke to me is label on the person that uses it, it indicates that the person is losing touch with their empathy.
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I would argue that a term such as LGBT or BAME is an insult to the individuals. Grouping together individuals based on race and sexuality as one big homogeneous group was created by the left. The acceptance that a black personality should be grouped together with someone from say the Middle East as the same is one of the most awful things the left has pushed into society
 
Londons_Moggie said:
The internet has influenced leftist values far more than those from the right. The reason why so many marginalised groups have found a voice and changed society is due to the internet giving them a platform. social media platforms are essentially leftist propaganda machines that drive the way our society operates. We may have a Tory government but we have a society that the left has far more influence over
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what you are describing here is that as the general public get more access to facts they become less right leaning.

Or to put it another way, the right (and by default the elite) can only exist and flourish by de-informing the populous through misinformation and lies. I agree.
 
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