Millwall fans booing players taking the knee

Even if that rationale holds true for Millwall supporters (and to be fair, it might for some) there must be a realisation from those supporters regarding how this would be construed. In my mind they've deliberately undertaken an act which could be construed as racist, they've made peace with the fact that this is how it can be construed and done it anyway. I'm not sure how that stands up to scrutiny for those who claim to be vehemently anti-racist? "We knew it may look racist but decided to do it anyway?"
 
Looks bad on Millwall but I imagine they have stopped it to avoid any further bad press. Just take a real stand and ban these idiots from the ground. Scum are scum and nothing will change this, this doesnt belong in football
 
Uwefuchs said:
People were talking about the booing being a rejection of the BLM movement rather than anti-racism itself. Some Millwall fans have noted that they have taken part in a number of anti racism initiatives in the past without any protest from the fans. People have noted that Millwall have had a number of black players in the past and never any hostility towards them.

Rightly or wrong, lots of Millwall fans and football fans in general were remarking that they associate BLM with the vandalism of British War memorials and the 'defund the police' message also keeps cropping up. Finally, I also saw a small number of tweets from individuals saying that they see BLM as an organisation that wants to 'destroy our heritage in this country'.
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OK a few points

1. The Cenotaph was NOT vandalised during a BLM protest.
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2. Football fans complaining about "defunding the police". Really? I'm more familiar with the rhetoric of the "bent coppers arresting innocent fans" as a concern of football fans!

3. The portrayal of BLM as "political" is a deliberate attempt by the right wing media to dilute their message exactly the same as "All Lives Matter" was.

4. The excuse that "they have taken part in a number of anti racism initiatives in the past" is neither here nor there, it carries similar weight to "some of my friends are black" they decided en masse to do something that was bound to be interpreted as racist and did it any way.

If I was the Millwall chairman, I'd have the players take a knee right in front of the fans not in the centre circle but facing them, eye to eye. And if they boo, walk off and concede the match.

I'm done with trying to understand racists this is very much a product of our current xenophobic government and influential politicians like Farage, with hateful right wing media. No tolerance for the intollerant.
 
On the subject of I am not racist, some of my friends are black.. I did an open mike comedy night in Poland, I was a bit drunk and thought I was funny. I threw a line in that didn't go down well. I know I am not racist some of my closest friends know black people.

Oddly enough it got a laugh from the other comedians but the audience didn't like it much.
 
Muttley said:
OK a few points

1. The Cenotaph was NOT vandalised during a BLM protest.
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2. Football fans complaining about "defunding the police". Really? I'm more familiar with the rhetoric of the "bent coppers arresting innocent fans" as a concern of football fans!

3. The portrayal of BLM as "political" is a deliberate attempt by the right wing media to dilute their message exactly the same as "All Lives Matter" was.

4. The excuse that "they have taken part in a number of anti racism initiatives in the past" is neither here nor there, it carries similar weight to "some of my friends are black" they decided en masse to do something that was bound to be interpreted as racist and did it any way.

If I was the Millwall chairman, I'd have the players take a knee right in front of the fans not in the centre circle but facing them, eye to eye. And if they boo, walk off and concede the match.

I'm done with trying to understand racists this is very much a product of our current xenophobic government and influential politicians like Farage, with hateful right wing media. No tolerance for the intollerant.
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You may know the answers to all those points but not everyone does, I've heard John Barnes in an interview talking about BLM and he mentioned the perception that the group want to defund the police. Simon Jordan on talksport was talking about the group being political and also mentioned the police issue and I've also heard MPs mention the same thing.

Listening to these people talk does influence people, yet you are lumping everyone in the same category as racist.

Maybe some people are misinformed on the subject but that doesn't make them all racist.

You are saying the fact that Millwall have taken part in anti racism initiatives is 'neither here nor there'. They could argue that if they were explicitly racist then they'd be booing the players for wearing kick it out t-shirts as well.

I'm not denying that there will be a racist element to their fan base in the same way that we will have here, but none of us know how much of the booing was race orientated and how much was a protest based on ignorance of what the knee stands for.

If anything the incident should allow encourage people to talk about what happened and why things happened. That is the start of educating people. Trying to shut the debate up like people are doing on here won't achieve anything.
 
Uwefuchs said:
John Barnes in an interview talking about BLM and he mentioned the perception that the group want to defund the police. Simon Jordan on talksport was talking about the group being political and also mentioned the police issue and I've also heard MPs mention the same thing.
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And this is indeed part of the problem. Firstly "defund the police" is largely a goal of the American BLM Movement (which remember is where it originated and where the problems are more obvious than here) the intention is not to "abolish" the police which is the way it seems to be interpreted, but to reduce some of the spend allocated to the police and to spend that money rather than on (often) militaristic methods of oppression and suppression but to spend the money on projects to reduce inequality of opportunity.

I don't listen to Talksport so whatever Simon Jordan is I don't know. Many pressure groups are "political" with a small "p", whether it is the Women's Institute campaigning for better bus services or the BLM movement arguing for equality. And this is the important thing they are not wanting to send white people to concentration camps, though Lord knows they would have good reason to, they just want equality. So let's not have the polticical excuse. Anyway since when did football fans get worked up about creeping Marxism. Mind calling BLM in any way "Marxist" is pitifully ludicrous and shows how led by the right wing media they are.

One thing I hear quite a lot from this "demographic" (of which, I should stress, I am a part as a 60+ balding white man) is they are tired of having xxxx "rammed down their throats" this applies not only to racial equality but also gender equality, LGBT+ issues etc., etc. anyone who sympathises with the plight of these minorities is "woke" or a "Social Justice Warrior" as if those things are in some way bad? It seems to me that they are raging against the dying of the light, this isn't their world any more, it never really was, I feel sorry for them mostly as they are just confused angry people. They seem to share common ground on Brexit and Trump and their profiles on Twitter are defined by multiple Union Flags and St. George crosses where they endlessly confirm each other's bias.
Uwefuchs said:
They could argue that if they were explicitly racist then they'd be booing the players for wearing kick it out t-shirts as well.
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I'm not sure what difference there is between being "racist" and "explicitly racist" is, but booing players taking the knee is a racist act. Also by doing so they have validated the need to continue to do so. Whereas we as led by Britt had decided it was just a gesture (and I thought he was right) when white people stand up and boo players of their own team for protesting at inequality it validates the protest. It isn't pointless they have just demonstrated why it is important to do it. That it annoys them is important.
Uwefuchs said:
If anything the incident should allow encourage people to talk about what happened and why things happened.
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And it has, we're on here talking about it. What I think needs to be done is to send a simple message back "no that is not acceptable". I was horrified that Millwall and QPR would not "take the knee" tonight. But it sounds like they will. Perhaps the Millwall fans showing a proper respect of the protest will be the best possible outcome, and we can move on. Will they?

Let's see...
 
Uwe
Who is the ‘group’ BLM?
I support BLM, as do many on here. None of us have been in touch with each other (as far as I’m aware) none of us have talked about defunding the police (actually we don’t need to - it has happened for the last 10 years over here - but i digress).
The footballers and anyone else I’ve seen take the knee Lewis Hamilton haven’t trashed statues nor have they shouted to defund the police.

All we want is an end to racism (and bigotry in general).
That’s the reason we support BLM.
Those saying it is ‘political’ are just deflecting.
 
Uwefuchs said:
You may know the answers to all those points but not everyone does, I've heard John Barnes in an interview talking about BLM and he mentioned the perception that the group want to defund the police. Simon Jordan on talksport was talking about the group being political and also mentioned the police issue and I've also heard MPs mention the same thing.

Listening to these people talk does influence people, yet you are lumping everyone in the same category as racist.

Maybe some people are misinformed on the subject but that doesn't make them all racist.

You are saying the fact that Millwall have taken part in anti racism initiatives is 'neither here nor there'. They could argue that if they were explicitly racist then they'd be booing the players for wearing kick it out t-shirts as well.

I'm not denying that there will be a racist element to their fan base in the same way that we will have here, but none of us know how much of the booing was race orientated and how much was a protest based on ignorance of what the knee stands for.

If anything the incident should allow encourage people to talk about what happened and why things happened. That is the start of educating people. Trying to shut the debate up like people are doing on here won't achieve anything.
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It happened because these fans who booed are racist. Not sure what there is to 'understand' and why you keep trying to understand to be honest.
 
Agree with the sentiments Finny,and it describes the huge majority of the public, you would hope. For most of us BLM is just an idea that we can support and get behind. For others it is more political which maybe doesn't help.
 
Michael_Vronsky said:
It happened because these fans who booed are racist. Not sure what there is to 'understand' and why you keep trying to understand to be honest.
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Michael I think that uwe is saying but trying to understand, not legitimise, you take a step towards eradicating the behaviour. Not dismissing or underplaying your experiences, of course. It's perfectly understandable that you have a very fixed point of view. It's easy to pontificate when you've never been a victim. Much more difficult when loved ones are being abused.
 
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