Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret
Well-known member
Robson worse than Southgate, Strachan, Monk and woody? I've heard it all now.
What has happened to Adi Dem?
- Thread starter Nosmo-King
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Laughing
Well-known member
His relegation spending the amount he did suggested he was a terrible manager. I don't think any other manager would have got us relegated with that spend, Monk, Strachan and Southgate included. Woodgate, probably not but Robson was no longer a rookie when we were relegated. Robson's cup finals means he is remembered fondly but I believe they were further evidence of his incompetence
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
I don't think it's all that binary with Robson. I think you have to take into account the starting point, the value of the squad he took over, its standing and then of course that the players you are talking about simply wouldn't have joined had he not been in charge. Looking at spend in isolation doesn't work, you have to add context and I think Robson winning two promotions, getting to three Cup Finals and attracting the players he did has to mean he was a huge success. He left the club in a much, much better place than when he found it.
As an example towards the other end of the scale, you'd have to say Monk and Pulis were much, much worse because they inherited a much 'bigger' club with a much better foundation to work from and spent oodles of cash on absolute dross. So whilst Pulis might have been hovering around the play offs, he presided over a disastrous transfer policy, played the most awful brand of football, turned fans off and ultimately failed miserably, leaving the club in a much worse state than that in which he found it.
Laughing
Well-known member
Adi I think the cup finals were evidence he was a poor manager and here is why. In the cup games there were one of two players desperate to play in an FA cup final and the team motivated itself. In the league of we went one down we often lost by 3 our 4. He couldn't motivate the players. There were divisions around the club that he failed to control. There was a drinking culture around the club. It really was poorly run.
Yes Robson attracted players that probably wouldn't have come for another manager. I am not sure that qualified as a skill set.
In terms of where the club started from when he arrived, Gibson poured millions into the club. More to do with Gibson than Robson.
The squad was so imbalanced Robson makes Monk look like a work class acrobat when it comes to squad building.
I know it's not a popular opinion, but I strongly believe Robson was an awful manager and his win percentage after he left Middlesbrough supports this. He managed about a 25% win rate after leaving. Even at Middlesbrough his win rate was less than monks.
He was an awful manager that is remembered fondly.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
Don't get me wrong, I am not holding him up as the best manager or even a good manager (certainly as a tactician). What I am saying though is that he was certainly not awful and his tenure cannot possibly be reasonably labelled a disaster. Especially since much of the criticism comes from 1 or 2 seasons out of a 7 (??) season tenure.
I think this is a real stretch. To use a successful cup run as evidence of an inability to motivate seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. It also fails to acknowledge two promotions (during which one of the cup finals happened) and a few respectable PL finishes as well. Even during the relegation season we went on a really excellent run of form in the final stretch of 97 at a time when we were at our lowest ebb. We played some esceptional football in that period too. So he could motivate and set up a team to win promotion twice, finish comfortably a few times and even in a season of turmoil that ended in relegation still get to two Cup finals and put together a run of form that would and should have ultimately seen us stay up on merit.
Identifying players is probably one of the single biggest skills that a manager can have. Talent identification and recruitment are vital. Juninho, Emerson, Ziege, Festa, Schwarzer, Merson, Armstrong, Branca, Pearson etc etc - some of these have gone on to be club legends. He brought them here. I don't think dismissing that is being even handed.
As we have seen countless times, money isn't enough. Of course Gibson played a massive part in any success but even he has openly admitted that none of it would have worked without Robson. He was the perfect manager for the time for us. He was a catalyst.
I find this one quite amusing. There is no doubt that in 96/97 we had an imbalanced squad. Festa and Schwarzer arrived too late and Pearson was no longer reliable. But again you are entirely focussed on one season. We had excellent balanced squads for each promotion and arguably for every other PL season than 96/97. To compare that to Monk's disastrous transfer record which not only provided us with a hugely imbalanced squad but also a squad filled with crap just doesn't hold up to scrutiny really.
He was a key part of transforming the club into what it became. A huge figure in our history. He is remembered fondly because he provided moments that many of us never thought we would ever see. He brought some of the best players in the world to the club, including the best player any of us are likely to see in a Boro shirt. He took us to three Cup finals, won two promotions and is therefore rightly remembered fondly. Nobody is blind to his faults but equally very few people would argue that he was awful.
I think this is a real stretch. To use a successful cup run as evidence of an inability to motivate seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. It also fails to acknowledge two promotions (during which one of the cup finals happened) and a few respectable PL finishes as well. Even during the relegation season we went on a really excellent run of form in the final stretch of 97 at a time when we were at our lowest ebb. We played some esceptional football in that period too. So he could motivate and set up a team to win promotion twice, finish comfortably a few times and even in a season of turmoil that ended in relegation still get to two Cup finals and put together a run of form that would and should have ultimately seen us stay up on merit.
Identifying players is probably one of the single biggest skills that a manager can have. Talent identification and recruitment are vital. Juninho, Emerson, Ziege, Festa, Schwarzer, Merson, Armstrong, Branca, Pearson etc etc - some of these have gone on to be club legends. He brought them here. I don't think dismissing that is being even handed.
As we have seen countless times, money isn't enough. Of course Gibson played a massive part in any success but even he has openly admitted that none of it would have worked without Robson. He was the perfect manager for the time for us. He was a catalyst.
I find this one quite amusing. There is no doubt that in 96/97 we had an imbalanced squad. Festa and Schwarzer arrived too late and Pearson was no longer reliable. But again you are entirely focussed on one season. We had excellent balanced squads for each promotion and arguably for every other PL season than 96/97. To compare that to Monk's disastrous transfer record which not only provided us with a hugely imbalanced squad but also a squad filled with crap just doesn't hold up to scrutiny really.
He was a key part of transforming the club into what it became. A huge figure in our history. He is remembered fondly because he provided moments that many of us never thought we would ever see. He brought some of the best players in the world to the club, including the best player any of us are likely to see in a Boro shirt. He took us to three Cup finals, won two promotions and is therefore rightly remembered fondly. Nobody is blind to his faults but equally very few people would argue that he was awful.
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Laughing
Well-known member
Good point Adi about the 7 seasons, and 2 promotions, not sure I agree with much of the rest of your post. Attracting players, yes partly but it was well documented at the time that Juninho came because the club sent a contingent headed by lamb to sao Paolo then arsenal tried to gate crash and the club president was having none of it as he had shaken hands with lamb. Not sure how much Robson had to do with it. I would expect Robson to do well with the money he had to spend, much better in fact than he did.
I would like to have found a net spend for the seasons Robson was in charge which would be useful.
The final thing your post doesn't address is Robson woeful record away from Middlesbrough. He was an awful manager.
I would like to have found a net spend for the seasons Robson was in charge which would be useful.
The final thing your post doesn't address is Robson woeful record away from Middlesbrough. He was an awful manager.
C
Cooper671
Guest
Pretty sure the figures were around £72M 45M recouped.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
You are re-writing history. Robson was with Lamb throughout the negotiations, he was there to talk to Juninho personally and Juninho has cited him as the reason he signed on countless occasions.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...lesbrough-brazil-english-football-baked-beans
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport...ow-middlesbrough-signed-brazils-no10-18732067
3:35 -
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/feature...d-i-put-pieces-newspaper-inside-my-boots-help
So you acknowledge he did well? Don't forget that this is about whether your characterisation of his time as a 'disaster' is accurate. I go back to where I started. He did spend a lot of money but he had Lennie Lawrence's squad, Ayresome Park and dog **** covered fields. That was the club he joined. The starting point has to be taken into account. What followed was a golden era for the club with promotions, cup finals and relative top flight success along with attracting some of the best in the world. I'm sorry but there is no way you can describe it as a disaster.
That's irrelevant. We are talking about Middlesbrough's best managers.
Laughing
Well-known member
His time away from Middlesbrough is relevant as it is a snapshot of his ability without the vat amount of money to spend. It is very relevant.
As for him doing well. He did OK in some of his seasons but a good manager would have done way better.
I am not rewriting history I wasn't t aware Robson was in Brazil.
You can only use where the club was when he took over if you ignore the vast sums that were spent Gibson had more to do with the climb from the second division than Robson did.
He was a poor manager after he left boro and a poor manager at boro.
Don't get me wrong we were fun to watch, but we should have been breaking into the top 4 or 5 given the money he had.
indeedido
Well-known member
No Robson, no Riverside revolution.
He got us promoted twice and to Wembley finals three times.
He was flawed and limited, but we were very lucky he agreed to come and attract what he did.
He stayed too long.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
I am struggling to reconcile your defence of Southgate with your view of Robson.
Laughing
Well-known member
I'm not really defending Southgate, more a case of suggesting he was put in a difficult situation. The writing was on the wall when the right back was sold from under him 3 or 4 games into his last season. Can't quite recall his name now. In any case the job Southgate was given was very different to Robson
Abel Tasman
Well-known member
Think you are referring to Luke Young but he was sold in close season to Villa.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
You’re right. He inherited an excellent squad in the PL with world class facilities and was given millions to spend.
Robson got a pretty average second tier squad with next to no facilities and was given millions to spend.
Sorry but you’re being very inconsistent and it’s not even handed.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
Lots of inaccurate nonsense has been written about Southgate that he was left out of the transfer decisions. It’s a load of tosh. Every decision was made with his full knowledge and approval.