Can you admit that Southgate is doing a great job yet?

alvez_49 said:
How many teams in the euros these days and world cup?
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You need to clarify, in the overall tournament or in the finals? Our qualifying for those competitions largely has the same teams it always had, other than yugoslavia has broken up and germany has re-unified. There are more teams in total, but it's 6 matches to win a euros or 7 for a world cup. Just one more match than when we won in 66.

The insinuation is that somehow it's easier for southgate to rack up wins. 'd counter that argument that their are very few poor teams in finals, and only a handful o poor teams in qualifying. If we go back to the 60s and 70s teams like Turkey, Slovakia, Czechs, norway, South Korea, Morocco, Egypt, Japan etc. were all pretty poor sides, they're now usually a very good challenge.

alvez_49 said:
What standard are they?
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The standard of the second rate teams is far far higher than back in the day. Most of them have some world class players like Salah for Egypt, Mitoma for Japan, Son for S Korea, Modric for Croatia world class players, and even below that level players like Davies for Canada are way better than those teams used to have.

alvez_49 said:
It's just a ridiculous twisting of statistics, congratulations.
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It's facts, not stats. Congratulations on ignoring reality for your own prejudices.

alvez_49 said:
And an additional 'competitive' competition in the nations league. Marty you're so silly.
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I didn't even include the nations league in that, because many on here say it isn't a proper competition and because those other managers didn't have that tournament. These facts are limited to Euros and World Cups. Now who is silly?

alvez_49 said:
Souness and the team disagree and so do I and the majority of others.
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Souness showed himself up last night. England battered them, stiffled the midfield with Rice and Philips snuffing everything out and taking the heart out of the scots. Souness accepted that England dominated and could have won by more, yet went on a 15 minute rant about how he shouldn't play the players that had just done a job on his team. What a spanner. He couldn't accept that his pre-match view was wrong and southgate was spot on, England competed with Scotland in the middle, dominated it, and took control. If the game was as simple as put all your most creative players on a pitch then we could all be world class managers, but were not because it's much more nuanced than that.

Lets not forget how largely awful Souness was as a manager at Liverpool, Southampton, Torino and Newcastle, he got sacked plenty of times for being poor. Great player, but poor manager and a bit of a dinosaur to be honest.
 
You chat such nonsense it's so funny, Southgate DOESN'T play the players he picked last night normally that's the whole point.

He picked players others have called out for and we dominated.

Ironically one sub Southgate made back to his trusted 'core' gave away an own goal.

Marty Marty Marty, you're such a silly Billy.
 
Nano said:
We have experienced CBs. John Stones has won 5 PL titles, a champions league and everything else with City. Maguire is rubbish at the moment but he's definitely experienced. Walker has played CB plenty of times and won everything there is to win. Tomori is a Serie A winner, Dunk has played hundreds of PL matches.
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Problem with that is Stones is injured and Walker was needed at RB his favoured position. He's only really a CB in a 3.

Tomori is the flavour of the month, but he isn't really that good from what I've seen of him. Dunk and Tomori are not experienced internationals which was my point.

Saying all that if stones is fit for the Italy game, he will play and maybe alongside Geuhi/Dunk/Colwill
 
alvez_49 said:
You chat such nonsense it's so funny, Southgate DOESN'T play the players he picked last night normally that's the whole point.
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which ones in partiucular? He plays Jude, he plays Rashford when 100% fit. Foden hasn't played much but hasn't ever really done it in an england shirt or City shirt consistently enough.
 
alvez_49 said:
We had renowned world class coaches with Eriksson and Capello and they did diddly squat with better players. - They didn't have better players.

They did do worse job though, both of them also under achieved.

Capello in particular essentially used the job as a cash machine and Sven well... ladies man wasn't he. 😉

I think those two are great adverts as to why it's important to have the national manager be from the United Kingdom
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They did have better players. The had 4/5 world class players, we don’t have that now l. The problem was accommodating world class cm on the left that didn’t work

You’d be hard to find a better defence than we had back then
 
ForssAwakens said:
They did have better players. The had 4/5 world class players, we don’t have that now l. The problem was accommodating world class cm on the left that didn’t work

You’d be hard to find a better defence than we had back then
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2002 and 2006 squads may well be the best, 8 proven truly world class players in each, with another 10 top class behind them.
 

I think Danny Murphy is spot on here (about two thirds of the way through the video) when he talks about Southgates approach.
 
atypical_boro said:
What does he say? Can't be bothered to watch all 11 minutes.
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He talks for about 2 mins towards the end 😂.

He's basically saying that Southgate has always gone with a cautious mindset in the big games and asking what can he do differently in a game where we are quite evenly matched with the opposition.

I wouldn't say he's overly critical its just whether Southgate is willing to be more positive in the big games or does he trust that his previous approach will eventually work.

I agree with Murphy we've got the players now with options off the bench, it's whether we can get the right combination and the very best out of those players in the big moments.
 
Uwefuchs said:
He talks for about 2 mins towards the end 😂.

He's basically saying that Southgate has always gone with a cautious mindset in the big games and asking what can he do differently in a game where we are quite evenly matched with the opposition.

I wouldn't say he's overly critical its just whether Southgate is willing to be more positive in the big games or does he trust that his previous approach will eventually work.

I agree with Murphy we've got the players now with options off the bench, it's whether we can get the right combination and the very best out of those players in the big moments.
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thanks. Yes I agree with that. Southgate certainly isn't perfect. But any England manager who manages to avoid most stupid banana skins is doing ok in my book.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
The rule is that you have to ignore the wins when they’re inconvenient and then when they become impossible to ignore you concoct increasingly tenuous ways to discount them instead.
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I don't know why this has to be so polarised on this board, Southgates record speaks for itself in that he's one of our most successful managers. But it's also a fact that we haven't been able to win in certain crunch games.

I don't think its as simple as either:
A. He's useless, or
B. He's faultless.

I think there's a pretty interesting conversation to be had about the way we play and set up the team if people can somehow get past A or B from above.
 
The nature of knockout football means that you will only face big games every 2 years, and when you play a big team it’s always a 50/50 game

Why are they used to hit Gareth with a stick with?

Re Danny Murphy, when you weakness is you defence, then it would be prudent to set up more cautionary. He can’t go out and buy a defender to fix the problem
 
ForssAwakens said:
The nature of knockout football means that you will only face big games every 2 years, and when you play a big team it’s always a 50/50 game

Why are they used to hit Gareth with a stick with?

Re Danny Murphy, when you weakness is you defence, then it would be prudent to set up more cautionary. He can’t go out and buy a defender to fix the problem
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Because you should be able to win half your 50/50 games not none of them.

There are 2 important questions to ask.
1. Does anyone have any belief that England could win a tournament with the current squad?
2. Does anyone have any belief that England will win with the current squad under Southgate?

I am firmly in Yes to 1 and No to 2 which means we are wasting our potential with Southgate. These groups of players only come round every so often and you have ot take the chance when you can. I think this is our last chance for a while because I can't see who is going to replace Kane.

I would also say yes to a variation of 1. if it was about the squad at the last two tournaments which we obviously didn't win. I think our squads were good enough to win both tournaments and not doing so was a failure, particularly the Euros which was essentially a home tournament.
 
Nano said:
2. Does anyone have any belief that England will win with the current squad under Southgate?

I am firmly in Yes to 1 and No to 2 which means we are wasting our potential with Southgate. These groups of players only come round every so often and you have ot take the chance when you can. I think this is our last chance for a while because I can't see who is going to replace Kane.
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I'm surprised you can be so certain about '2' when we came a penalty shoot-out away from winning one, something no other manager has come close to (since we actually won one).

I also don't know why you're writing Kane off after the Euros, he'll only be 30.
 
atypical_boro said:
What does he say? Can't be bothered to watch all 11 minutes.
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Not a lot, basically says that it's a choice to play a CDM and two 8s, or two CDMs and a 10.

The problem I have with this is if you play with one CDM and two 8s, yes, you have more attacking options, but that doesn't mean they'll have more of the ball, because you have to win it and get it to them, and no one ever talks about the elephant in the room, that 1 CDM leaves you much more open to the counter attack.

We played 2 CDMs last night and strangled their possession and territorial gains. They couldn't get any good ball to their forwards. It can work especially if one of your 8s has the range of passing that Rice has.
 
Nano said:
Because you should be able to win half your 50/50 games not none of them.

There are 2 important questions to ask.
1. Does anyone have any belief that England could win a tournament with the current squad?
2. Does anyone have any belief that England will win with the current squad under Southgate?

I am firmly in Yes to 1 and No to 2 which means we are wasting our potential with Southgate. These groups of players only come round every so often and you have ot take the chance when you can. I think this is our last chance for a while because I can't see who is going to replace Kane.

I would also say yes to a variation of 1. if it was about the squad at the last two tournaments which we obviously didn't win. I think our squads were good enough to win both tournaments and not doing so was a failure, particularly the Euros which was essentially a home tournament.
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with such a small data size you will get outliers

It’s the flip the coin analogy.
 
atypical_boro said:
I'm really not sure about that. Comparatively speaking of course (no point comparing eras) that 2006-2010 side had a number of players who'd won several PL titles, the CL, won individual honours like European Player of the Year and silver/bronze in the ballon d'Or and a couple who played for Real Madrid in the galacticos era.

I think its a stretch to say the current crop is the best XI in world football. Most of them haven't won a thing yet (other than the City players), its all potential. I'd be surprised if Eddie Howe or someone made them any better than they are.
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The other thing to remember is Southgate helped develop and implement the blueprint with the FA for bringing through this generation of more technical players who are more comfortable in possession. He also gave many of them a chance at a much younger age than other England managers have done in the past. In short, he has played a key role in developing some of these players and helping create this team, which as has been said already, are one of a handful of teams with a fag packet between them in terms of overall quality. England's defence is probably it's weakest area, but there is real quality in midfield/attacking areas.

It's been said before, but Southgate probably won't be properly appreciated for the job he's done until he's gone.
 
atypical_boro said:
I'm surprised you can be so certain about '2' when we came a penalty shoot-out away from winning one, something no other manager has come close to (since we actually won one).

I also don't know why you're writing Kane off after the Euros, he'll only be 30.
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I don't think we will be as fortunate with the draw again. We've already had 2 tournaments under Southgate where we have had a free run to the late stages, and the Euros was at home. It's more likely we have to play a strong team in an earlier knock out round and Southgate doesn't win those games.

Kane is already 30. He'll be a month shy of 33 at the next World Cup. He might still be at the top of his game but who knows. Maybe I'm being a bit premature as players do play well into their 30s these days.

ForssAwakens said:
with such a small data size you will get outliers

It’s the flip the coin analogy.
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It's not really a coin flip though. We have been 50/50 on team strength but we've been behind on tactics/approach.
 
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