Mason Greenwood

Laughing said:
If one of my kids, and I have brought up 4 looked to anyone famous as a role model, because they were famous or a pop singer or an actor, I would think I had failed miserably as a parent.
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Pretty much every parent has failed them. All kids look up to famous people. I must have failed miserably because mine look up to bloody YouTubers.
 
Omega said:
😂yes that’s what happened. I have no stance on Greenwood but the CPS have give it NO FURTHER ACTION I believe they have all the facts also do Man Utd as I believe innocent till proven guilty which means he is innocent
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They dropped it because the main witness was not going to testify against him, if it had gone to court on the evidence available it was also likely that person was going to say something to scupper the prosecution.
Coming from a background where in my family the police dropped a case against a person who definitely should have served time, because the victim and main prosecution witness didn't want to see that person in jail. Domestic trials are real minefields in some cases, but that doesn't mean other people should feel like they can't comment and show their disapproval, sometimes in cases like this it's all you have.
 
Frankie Lee said:
Pretty much every parent has failed them. All kids look up to famous people. I must have failed miserably because mine look up to bloody YouTubers.
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I specifically said role model frankie. Looking up to and role model are not the same. A role model is someone who's behaviour you want to copy.

You can admire, for example, what a musician had achieved, like Clapton and still think he is a d*ck.

If your kids are looking at a footballer for behavioural clues you have failed.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
A new nadir for this board when posters are telling others they've failed at parents because they have a different opinion than them.
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Be critical of the post but all means. Doesn't mean I am wrong.

I would be mortified if any of my kids modelled their behaviour on someone because they were famous.

You can love a footballer and wear his name on a shirt. That isn't using him as a role model. It's loving what he does on a football pitch.

All my children look to me, their mother and extended family as role models. We gave them their moral framework. Not a single que for right and wrong was obtained from someone on TV. If you didn't do the same with your children then you failed them.

No nadir here, just a sensible comment that some may choose to misinterpret.
 
Laughing said:
All my children look to me, their mother and extended family as role models. We gave them their moral framework. Not a single que for right and wrong was obtained from someone on TV. If you didn't do the same with your children then you failed them.

No nadir here, just a sensible comment that some may choose to misinterpret.
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You're incredibly naive if you genuinely believe that.

Also incredibly rude telling other people that they've failed as parents.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
A new nadir for this board when posters are telling others they've failed at parents because they have a different opinion than them.

Is it only male footballers that mean you've failed as a parent, or female ones too - just so I know when my daughters a bit older?
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It's hard with the role model thing though. Because anyone who makes it to the top of a sport like football needs to have a level of discipline, determination and work ethic that should be admired and aspired to. But, they're human so they're more than likely going to have a lot of negative traits as well. Even more so if they're making millions a year from a young age.

It's right that children shouldn't aim to model their character on a footballer or youtuber. But how do you stop that? I absolutely saw Gary Lineker as a role model growing up. I think it's just natural, people have always looked to successful people to understand how they can be successful.

I also don't think it's healthy to expect a child to only look to their parents as role models. I love my mum and dad, but I couldn't look to the for the determination and drive I needed to be successful in what I wanted to do. And if my son wants to be a top athlete, he couldn't look for me as to how to have the kind of discipline necessary for it, because I don't have that. I'd absolutely want him to see that from a successful sportsperson.

The healthy way to do it is to put into context that everyone is flawed and you should never try to model every aspect of any person. Take the positive aspects and learn from them. And take the negative aspects and avoid doing them.
 
Laughing said:
Be critical of the post but all means. Doesn't mean I am wrong.

I would be mortified if any of my kids modelled their behaviour on someone because they were famous.

You can love a footballer and wear his name on a shirt. That isn't using him as a role model. It's loving what he does on a football pitch.

All my children look to me, their mother and extended family as role models. We gave them their moral framework. Not a single que for right and wrong was obtained from someone on TV. If you didn't do the same with your children then you failed them.

No nadir here, just a sensible comment that some may choose to misinterpret.
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I just hope they got a bit of humility and self awareness from someone else in their family, as if they got it from you then they're in trouble.
 
TeaCider said:
You're incredibly naive if you genuinely believe that.

Also incredibly rude telling other people that they've failed as parents.
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I'm not sure where I heard someone saying that before. But I'm sure it's someone like Jordan Peterson. It's part of something else he says about never letting your child do something that would make you hate them. I can't say I disagree fully with the sentiment. But I don't think it's realistic and I don't think it's healthy.

I want my son to be able to think for himself. And that means he has to be able to question my beliefs. He's 9 and we've already had quite deep (for a 9 year old) discussions about God and religion (he believes there is one and I don't) and I always tell him he can believe what he wants but that he should know how to answer "why?" Clearly, we don't always have those kind of conversations (it's usually football, basketball and pokemon) but it's important to help him understand how to think for himself.

I don't want him to mindlessly follow my moral code, because then it isn't grounded in anything. It's why most people don't have a consistent sense of morality, because it's just rote-learned from their parents and they don't know why they believe it. I will guide him, but he needs to understand what he believes. And that doesn't happen if he only learns his morality from me.

I don't think I've quite explained that properly. It's quite difficult to put into a form message. But I think it's enough to get the gist of what I mean.
 
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TeaCider said:
You're incredibly naive if you genuinely believe that.

Also incredibly rude telling other people that they've failed as parents.
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You may want to read should athletes be rolemodels, or Dobies Are athletes good role models. Many psychologists agree with me, I am not voicing an unusual opinion.

I think that people misunderstand how their kids percieve so-called role models. Wanting to play football in the no 10 role and score 29 goals in a season, isn't using Akpom as a role model. Role models are how our children learn to live in the world. They do this by copying and mimicing. Playing ,ums and dads. Learning to comfort a frightened friend.

I explained how our kids developed their moral framework and it isn't from wayne rooney or spice girls. Neither of these have anything to say about living a good life, how to achieve the best you can without walking over everyone. They say nothing about why we don't tolerate bullying either as a victim, observer or perpetrator. They say nothing about supporting and loving your family and friends.

Let me just highlight that again, celebrities, generally, have nothing to say that teaches our children anything worthwhile.


On the subject of naivety, nope, I am not. I have children from 40 down to 12. So a little bit of experience.

Finally, I never told anyone they had failed as parents. I said, if my children are looking to celebrities as their role models, I have failed as a parent.
 
rbmfc1985 said:
I'm not sure where I heard someone saying that before. But I'm sure it's someone like Jordan Peterson. It's part of something else he says about never letting your child do something that would make you hate them. I can't say I disagree fully with the sentiment. But I don't think it's realistic and I don't think it's healthy.

I want my son to be able to think for himself. And that means he has to be able to question my beliefs. He's 9 and we've already had quite deep (for a 9 year old) discussions about God and religion (he believes there is one and I don't) and I always tell him he can believe what he wants but that he should know how to answer "why?" Clearly, we don't always have those kind of conversations (it's usually football, basketball and pokemon) but it's important to help him understand how to think for himself.

I don't want him to mindlessly follow my moral code, because then it isn't grounded in anything. It's why most people don't have a consistent sense of morality, because it's just rote-learned from their parents and they don't know why they believe it. I will guide him, but he needs to understand what he believes. And that doesn't happen if he only learns his morality from me.

I don't think I've quite explained that properly. It's quite difficult to put into a form message. But I think it's enough to get the gist of what I mean.
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By teaching your son to question, you are being a role model for him. You would have to define moral code, I suppose. If your son was bullying someone smaller, would you enforce your moral code on him? Of course you would, or at least I hope so.
 
Laughing said:
By teaching your son to question, you are being a role model for him. You would have to define moral code, I suppose. If your son was bullying someone smaller, would you enforce your moral code on him? Of course you would, or at least I hope so.
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That's not really a moral code situation though, that's an action. I would absolutely make it clear that action is not acceptable under any circumstances and would enforce that. But that's different to him getting his sense of morality or moral code from me. Because that's much deeper, and doesn't just relate to one action. It's about why such actions are wrong - in this case, having respect and care for other people is the underlying moral belief that I have which underpins why you shouldn't bully anyone. And if I was asked why on that, it would go to my underlying moral belief that my actions should always try to make the world a better place, or at the very least, not a worse place.

It's a philosophical question, really, just drilling down to the axiom that underpins your morality. Do you actually have a consistent thread that links together your moral beliefs, or is it just because your parents, God, teacher, faviourite YouTuber told you so. I want my son to have a consistent thread, and he's only going to have that consistency if he finds it for himself. For example, if he continues to be religious, then his moral code has to be different from mine - as my moral code is build on the belief that there is no God which means there is nothing beyond death. So for me, the alleged actions of Mason Greenwood are wrong because of the harm he is causing to another individual which makes the world a worse place. For a religious person, the actions of Mason Greenwood are wrong because God says it's wrong and all morality comes from God. As long as my son grows up to think those actions are wrong, I don't care what his moral code is which gets him there - I just want him to have a clear reason as to why they are wrong.

I suppose the only real disagreement we have on this, is that by getting your child to see their parent as a role model, you can stop them seeing a footballer or YouTuber as a role model. I don't think it is and I think you're underestimating the influence that a footballer, YouTuber or any kind of celebrity can have. It's just natural for someone to see a successful person and want to be like them in order to achieve the same success. This is especailly true for young people. While they will look to their parents, their parents will 99% of the time not have achieved success in an area that the child wants to be successful. So they are going to treat them as role models, whether you like it or not. If Mason Greenwood was to sign for Boro and fire us to promotion this season, I would absolutely expect that my son would look to him and think "I want to be like him." For me, if his moral framework is just based on "because my dad does this", that could easily be replaced with "because Mason Greenwood does this", whilst if the moral framework is "because I shouldn't ever harm anyone" then that can't be replaced in the same way.

We're all suceptable to being influenced by celebrities anyway. There's a reason why political movements and parties want to spend so much money on getting their message out there and try to make their spokespeople "influencers".
 
rbmfc1985 said:
That's not really a moral code situation though, that's an action. I would absolutely make it clear that action is not acceptable under any circumstances and would enforce that. But that's different to him getting his sense of morality or moral code from me. Because that's much deeper, and doesn't just relate to one action. It's about why such actions are wrong - in this case, having respect and care for other people is the underlying moral belief that I have which underpins why you shouldn't bully anyone. And if I was asked why on that, it would go to my underlying moral belief that my actions should always try to make the world a better place, or at the very least, not a worse place.

It's a philosophical question, really, just drilling down to the axiom that underpins your morality. Do you actually have a consistent thread that links together your moral beliefs, or is it just because your parents, God, teacher, faviourite YouTuber told you so. I want my son to have a consistent thread, and he's only going to have that consistency if he finds it for himself. For example, if he continues to be religious, then his moral code has to be different from mine - as my moral code is build on the belief that there is no God which means there is nothing beyond death. So for me, the alleged actions of Mason Greenwood are wrong because of the harm he is causing to another individual which makes the world a worse place. For a religious person, the actions of Mason Greenwood are wrong because God says it's wrong and all morality comes from God. As long as my son grows up to think those actions are wrong, I don't care what his moral code is which gets him there - I just want him to have a clear reason as to why they are wrong.

I suppose the only real disagreement we have on this, is that by getting your child to see their parent as a role model, you can stop them seeing a footballer or YouTuber as a role model. I don't think it is and I think you're underestimating the influence that a footballer, YouTuber or any kind of celebrity can have. It's just natural for someone to see a successful person and want to be like them in order to achieve the same success. This is especailly true for young people. While they will look to their parents, their parents will 99% of the time not have achieved success in an area that the child wants to be successful. So they are going to treat them as role models, whether you like it or not. If Mason Greenwood was to sign for Boro and fire us to promotion this season, I would absolutely expect that my son would look to him and think "I want to be like him." For me, if his moral framework is just based on "because my dad does this", that could easily be replaced with "because Mason Greenwood does this", whilst if the moral framework is "because I shouldn't ever harm anyone" then that can't be replaced in the same way.

We're all suceptable to being influenced by celebrities anyway. There's a reason why political movements and parties want to spend so much money on getting their message out there and try to make their spokespeople "influencers".
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Well thought out response rbmfc, though I don't necesarily agree with all of it.

Interesting points around how we frame our moral code. I didn't really mean for it to be taken to that level. I more meant right from wrong.

Like you, my daughter and I have had several discussions about god and religion. She believed in god when that was taught in school and made her own mind up as she got older. She is 12 now.

My viewpoint on god is I don't know. I do know that the universe gets along just fine without a god winding it up each night and interfering. I was also reasonably open about how at odds with science all the religious texts I have read are.

Two of our odest children both went through a period of attending sunday school and church and I took them.

I don't think we disagree on role models, I think there is a misunderstanding or disagreement on what a rolemodel is, or should be. If my kids understand that athletes get to where they are by sporting ability alone. Singers by musical ability alone. You could argue, I guess that they worked incredibly hard at their ability (not sure about musical ability anymore). My kids have all understood that distinction because they were told.

Admire a boxer, or footballer for their ability, great don't expect them to provide some kind of life framework to live by.

Of course we are all influenced, look at how much is spent on advertising. So of course there is some unconscious influencing going on in kids heads. However see my point above.

As I said above, whilst some folks think my opinion is out on a limb, it really isn't. Phsycologists would, largely, agree that celebrities as role models are generally bad. Not because the celebrities are bad, but because they are selling something that for most is unattainable.

I haven't read too much about celebrities, but several articles on sporting heroes and how they can be damaging to children. I would assume the same thing would apply to musicians and youtubers.
 
“Besiktas are set to offer Manchester United's 21-year-old English forward Mason Greenwood a return to football after it was announced he would leave Old Trafford.” (i Sport)
 
I'd missed the diversion into parenting that this thread wandered down.

The notion that a child should be steered away from being inspired by the dedication and perseverance underpinning the impressive achievements of elite athletes is, quite frankly, fúĉking bonkers.

Got to be trolling.
 
Chutney said:
I'd missed the diversion into parenting that this thread wandered down.

The notion that a child should be steered away from being inspired by the dedication and perseverance underpinning the impressive achievements of elite athletes is, quite frankly, fúĉking bonkers.

Got to be trolling.
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I've also enjoyed the belated parenting lesson. Moral code, enforcement? All really impressive stuff. I guess "stop licking that plug" probably doesn't measure up.
 
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