MFC's SC's are very good value.

It’s good value for a renewal especially
If you’ve got young uns in the kids zone, it’s not good value for a new single adult season ticket holder though.
 
Humpty said:
What data is this based on as a matter of interest?

Season tickets aren't good value. You just need to look up and down the league to see that.

You also haven't given any kind of basis for the comparison on why they're good value.

Matchday ticket pricing is scandalous and purely aimed at trying to force fans into purchasing season tickets when they aren't gvfm and often uneconomical given some people's circumstance. The club need to be more creative and understanding of the fans situation. Not everyone can afford a season ticket, not everyone can make night matches, some people works 6 weeks off etc. etc.
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It is based on the detailed data the club provided the forum and Rob included in the fanzine and posted on here in the recent thread on Questions for the club.
I applaud the club releasing the data, it is a real step forward.
The analysis I did is based on factual data now in the public domain.
SC's are immensely good value in absolute terms as I have shown in full.
I haven't compared to other clubs, match day prices, or other activities, I have simply passed my opinion that in absolute terms the SC's represent excellent value.

I have criticised Gibson for the quality of his decision making since 2006, and for being secretive/insular.
Well, his last big decision is working in the most exciting way and he has opened up admirably to explain why prices had to go up showing his revenues in great detail.
Credit where it is undoubtedly due I believe. The club deserve it.
I happen to agree with you re Match day prices as my post clearly details, but forgive me, they haven't even been announced yet and I think the club have been seeking input as to ideas, which is all I have done.
 
If fans are receiving a free drink and going to every home game - yes good value for a full priced adult and even better value for young adults and over 65s.

We had around 3,300 unsold home tickets against Reading, probably not as high a figure as most people would think so now running at around 88% capacity for home fans.

For next season it might be useful to extend the Family Zone if its possible or create another zone with the family deal.

A fair comparison is a theatre ticket to see a decent band or live theatre show say at Middlesbrough Little Theatre or Billingham Forum. Last time I looked it was around £26 or £25 for concessions. On that basis MFC is cheaper.

Sunderland is probably a fair comparison too, similar area, similiar facilities, but have they invested as much in their squad? No free drink there.
 
gravy173 said:
Second highest prices in the league aren’t they in one of the most deprived areas in the country.

Good value compared to what, certainly not the majority of the league, check the Mackems prices out for a start.
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some people are easily taken in
 
Redwurzel said:
If fans are receiving a free drink and going to every home game - yes good value for a full priced adult and even better value for young adults and over 65s.

We had around 3,300 unsold home tickets against Reading, probably not as high a figure as most people would think so now running at around 88% capacity for home fans.

For next season it might be useful to extend the Family Zone if its possible or create another zone with the family deal.

A fair comparison is a theatre ticket to see a decent band or live theatre show say at Middlesbrough Little Theatre or Billingham Forum. Last time I looked it was around £26 or £25 for concessions. On that basis MFC is cheaper.

Sunderland is probably a fair comparison too, similar area, similiar facilities, but have they invested as much in their squad? No free drink there.
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no such thing as a free drink if they knocked the so called free drink on the head and took it off the price of the season card it would have ben a decent deal
 
gravy173 said:
Second highest prices in the league aren’t they in one of the most deprived areas in the country.

Good value compared to what, certainly not the majority of the league, check the Mackems prices out for a start.
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What people often forget is that the club are not competing with Blackburn, Preston, Watford etc on price, they don’t need to.

They are competing against whatever else Middlesbrough/Teesside as an area has to offer. You should judge value by what you can get as an alternative. Unlikely any of our fans would say “Boro is too expensive I’m gonna watch Sunderland instead”. It just happens that in Teesside, MFC has a fairly big competitive advantage over most other pastimes.

Fans may consider watching Pools, until they look at the cost of a Pools season ticket. They may decide to spend it on a golf club or watching non-league or whatever instead, which is of course their prerogative.
 
Theatre/gigs etc comparisons are pointless, they're completely different types of entertainment. They're one offs and there's a certain guarantee of the level of entertainment on offer (within reason).

And in any case you can't compare the price to see one show with how much a season ticket costs on a match by match basis. You'd have to compare it to the walk up price surely?

Agree the renewal price is fair. Although you have to bear in mind a lot of people (maybe most?) will end up missing some games for various reasons (work, family commitments, illness etc). The price per game soon starts to inch up if say, you can't make midweek matches.
 
indeedido said:
Most people were initially shocked at MFC increasing the price of SC's by what appears so much for season 2023-24.
The truth is that the additional revenue the price increase will raise will not nearly cover the inflation impact on the running costs of the current operation. Nowhere near, as I posted shortly after the initial announcement.
That is before even considering any additional player related costs, team strengthening, stadium investment or other additional infrastructure.

Personally I really applaud the club being more open and communicating so much more info on revenue streams - in particular SC breakdowns by stand and age group.

So on analysing the data they released via the Forum (and posted by Rob) I would suggest the following observations based on that 2022-23 data:
(Obviously excluding Hospitality SC's, matchday tickets and away fans)
I think some slight variances may be explained by the Half Season Card inclusions by MFC in the figures.

1. Every SC offers very good value for money, at the very least.
I sit in West Upper, where on average adults paid £27.05 per match on a SC. I am a GC holder, so got the Free Drink too.
The cheapest adult average paid was in NW corner where £19.78 was the average price per match.
The average adult SC was £21.35 per match. (The Club obviously only receive £17.79 of this ex VAT)

2. Every Over 65 gets an excellent deal on a SC.
The Average Pensioner paid £15.00 per match on a SC.
In the West Upper (highest) they paid £19.40 per match mostly I'd guess with a free drink. The lowest paid was £13.52 per match in SW. In the GRFZ the pensioners paid £13.74 each. I don't think anybody could seriously criticise the pricing for supporters who almost by definition have been following Boro all their lives and paid in a lot of money over the years.

3. Under 18's SC prices are extremely good value everywhere.

Outside the GRFZ U18 SC's paid £7.52 per match on average.
The highest paid was £7.75 in South, the lowest outside GRFZ was £7.12 in NW.
Inside the GRFZ on average the 1,207 U18's paid £2.68 per match, with 791 of them paying just £1.88 per match.
All of those prices are extremely low, but the GRFZ ones are unrealistically and constrainingly low.

4. 18-21 SC prices are good value everywhere.

On average 18-21's paid £11.91 per match.
Highest paid was £14.19 in West Upper, where there are only 86.
Lowest paid outside GRFZ was in North £11.50 per match. GRFZ £11.13.
Only 1016 or 5.3% of our SC holders are 18-21.

5. The GRFZ is incredibly cheap, is predictably full, a closed shop.

The GRFZ is the only part of the stadium where younger kids get even cheaper access.
725 U11 kids paid absolutely nothing, while in total 894 U11's paid a total of £9,475 or £0.46 per match.
The gap to the average U18 at £7.52 per match everywhere else or £172.85 per season is very big.
2101 of the total 5131 Kids SC's in the whole stadium are in the GRFZ.
41% of the total kids paid £83,737 or 14% of the £607,462 total kids revenue.
That is a strange model to expand.

6. 618 Personal Assistants pay absolutely nothing.

This is appropriate, but extremely generous too by the Club.
Over 3% of the SC base.


7. There are still thousands of empty seats on average at every match and will be outside the PL.

We are currently averaging over 25,000 (inc Away fans and est £1k Hospitality), have 19,061 standard SC's, estimate 2,000 lost to segregation.
That leaves on average c5k empty seats at least.
Whilst the best way to fill them is PL football and or success on the pitch, it does appear that the club could be more creative to fill more of those seats more often.

Given the GRFZ FULL signs, I understand some leaping to the conclusion to simply expand the GRFZ and tie in those fans, especially the young ones. Just get some/any revenue for those empty seats.
I think this would be wrong for the following reasons:

a) The revenue concept is bizarre. There is no need to give lots more seats away at such incredibly low revenue, that then leave the club trapped as they currently are with GRFZ.

b) Existing families would try and switch in for the lower prices, reducing revenue immediately and leaving empty more seats in other areas.

c) Family groups also want to sit in other parts of the stadium.

d) It is the matchday pricing that prevents more of those empty seats being sold around the stadium. Simply, the premium is far too big and the matchday kids prices are simply way too high.
A saturday Adult ticket in West Upper costs £36 to watch Preston and £21 for an U18. £57 for a parent to take just 1 kid. (North is £49) It is not surprising there are loads of empty seats except on Boxing Day in these areas.

The gap between SC price per match and Match day is too big.
The gap between GRFZ kids SC and other kids SC is too big.
The gap between GRFZ kids SC per match and Matchday kids is obscene.

I fully understand that Gibson is effectively subsidising all SC's through his Group loans to cover annual losses and it is his call to make, but it is still true that the rest of the SC's do subsidise the GRFZ.

The last thing I am advocating is reducing SC prices or not applying an increase for the new season as covered above.
I am simply suggesting that Matchday prices should not be increased further (SC discounts are already massive) and perhaps a Free U18 ticket should be available with every Adult Matchday ticket anywhere in the stadium to encourage more fans to attend more often and eventually trade up to a SC if they can.
So an Adult and kid for £36 in West Upper or £31 in North.
An existing Adult & U18 SC combo paid £34.64, so is still a little cheaper than the £36, in the North they paid £27.29.
If they were so "outraged" there are only 281 U18 SC's in the entire West Stand Upper at present and they pay just £7.59 per match.

I think other intelligent packaging of matches at discounted rates with Free Kids included would be worth pursuing. This could provide real value, sell seats, generate more revenue and not be nearly so constraining as an expanded GRFZ.
(I bet the opex in operating and refreshing the GFRZ is higher too).

Newy raises lots of points around Merchandising (Quality, Value, Availability, Revenue generated) and there is also lots that does need to be done to improve the experience and revenue generated by Concourse Operations. These could indeed help offset the need for large SC increases, but my own personal view remains that the SC prices are very reasonable and the increase absolutely justified.
Perhaps the person who should benefit from the extra revenue that is undoubtedly available from Commercial and Merchandise should be Gibson?
Maybe that would provide the money to refresh the stadium.

Before you say it Rob, yes this my opinion, but based on data provided by the club, not back of a fag packet.
I think most fair minded supporters will be grateful that MFC have opened up and appreciate the financial position and stark realities.
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Seems like madness to me the over 65s prices especially those with a free drink (probably most). Full price paying adults put off from buying full price drinks etc due to massive queues of people waiting for a free drink. The East stand with its limited outlets is not worth the bother so the three of us just don't buy 6 pints from the club.
 
Almost all the comparisons with other club's ST prices are based on "cheapest" tickets. Top of those tables tend to be clubs who offload a handful of rubbish seats with restricted views.

When comparing with other clubs, make sure you're really comparing like-for-like. Have a look at what they actually charge for a seat behind the goal, or a seat on the halfway line.
 
I don’t think that comparing overly expensive concert tickets is justification for expensive football tickets. Folks saying that years ticket prices are reasonable are also not justification for more expensive tickets next season.

Compare the actual full price of season tickets on a match by match basis to those elsewhere in the championship and the premier league.. then see where we are.

The free drink thing is an absolute nonsense and I honestly don’t think a price rise is justified when we have 2000 (at least) seats going to waste through segregation and the food, drink and merch sales are in such a state.

We are paying for the clubs sloppy commercial practices whilst our kids are walking billboards for a betting company.

Free drink? I wonder how much betting has increased since the introduction of the free pint?
 
I've just seen the statistics published in the other thread and in fmttm and without a whole host of information those numbers are irrelevant.

The point about stadium improvements and the seating especially is particularly disingenuous. The supporters forum themselves have asked the club about this and the club have responded to say they will not be replacing them in the short term.
 
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Humpty said:
I've just seen the statistics published in the other thread and in fmttm and without a whole host of information those numbers are irrelevant.

The point about stadium imporvements and the seating especially is particularly disingenuous. The supporters forum themselves have asked the club about this and the club have responded to say they will not be replacing them in the short term.
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The club have told the forum they will be replacing the Riverside pitch and two pitches at Hurworth and overhauling many of the turnstiles at the Riverside. If we get promoted there will be wholesale changes elsewhere. I think you are right about the seating except to say there is a lot of conversation about rail seating right now. Much more expensive than ordinary seating but it is possible that over the next two summers we might follow Cardiff in installing some rail seating into the south stand and away areas. There is also the debate about the Fan Zone, should we extend it, should we cover it, should we keep it in the sunshine. They are also poised to radically improve wifi in and around the stadium. These costs are outside FFP but someone has to fund them. Steve Gibson paid out £50m during COVID. You might say he is a very rich man but it is still £50milion!
Humpty the last session we had with Steve Gibson was pretty heated but also there was a great deal of research and stats presented from both sides. As a Fans Forum we must continue to fight for lower prices and we must also continure to present the best arguments we can.
 
I agree with you Rob, I just feel like there needs to be more scrutiny on the numbers. I've sat with Gibson before. He's an incredibly assertive personality and he's very good at disarming you with his rhetoric. It's very easy to sit on a message board like I am here compared to being in that meeting with him. I understand that. I just feel that what we've been presented with doesn't quite stand up.
 
I didn't say theatre is the same but its the closest comparison for some people, because its live, in the same geographic area, a seat for 90 minutes. I was comparing walk up £26/£25 for live theatre (adult/senior) with say £27/£19 for the Stoke match walk up. Theatre yes entertainment is more guaranteed but that has to be balanced with the thrill of not knowing the outcome of a game before you go. Going to 20 to 23 theatre trips to me is the same as a season ticket, every performace is different and every match is different.

My local National League North Club charge £20/£15 walk up and facilites are from the 1960s and the standard of football is much lower than ther Championship. Walk ups tend to be quite expensive at most clubs not just the Riverside.

Posters on here are saying we are the second most expensive, well Swansea are charging £32.50 plus booking fee for seat that would be £31 to £30 at the Riverside. So based on what has been said are they the most expensive?
 
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Redwurzel said:
Posters on here are saying we are the second most expensive, well Swansea are charging £32.50 plus booking fee for seat that would be £31 to £30 at the Riverside. So based on what has been said are they the most expensive?
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For season tickets they are which is what the thread is about.
 
Vzzzbx said:
Kids shirts aren't allowed to have betting sponsors on them, they have "Host Stay" on them.
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I've said this time and time again.. eleven and twelve year olds start getting into mens sizes and were talking about going all the way up to under 18s.

Our under 21s play in host and stay shirts.. but for our young fans it's Unibet or bust.
 
Humpty said:
I agree with you Rob, I just feel like there needs to be more scrutiny on the numbers. I've sat with Gibson before. He's an incredibly assertive personality and he's very good at disarming you with his rhetoric. It's very easy to sit on a message board like I am here compared to being in that meeting with him. I understand that. I just feel that what we've been presented with doesn't quite stand up.
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I've talked at great length with Gibson before. He is a bully if you let him be.
But Humpty, the numbers released by the club through the forum are massive disclosure, major transparancy, like NEVER before.

Objectively looking at the figures released and aligning with Published Accounts some things are inescapable.

1. The Gate receipts last season(inc SC's, Match tickets and Cups) covered about a third of the Wage bill, or about a quarter of the Total Cost of Sales. The Match receipts (exc Cups) did not even cover Amortisation of player registrations last season.

2. The club do not retain all the money from tickets, they are of course subject to VAT.

3. The prices actually paid this season per match for SC holders (averaged over all SC holders not just EB's) is very low. If Twenty is plenty then the vast majority of people attending The Riverside pay less than that per match. The majority of Adults pay less than that. The numbers are clear.

4. Concessions are generous for Pensioners and for Under 18's everywhere in the stadium.

5. The 4049 GRFZ SC holders paid £930k combined or less than £10 each per match this season. The Adults in there pay roughly what is paid in N,S, and Corners. The 2101 U18's in there paid £84k or under £40 each on average for this season.
725 paid nothing at all.
Extending this hugely subsidised scheme to incentivise filling empty seats is a very poor commercial decision.
If there are c5k seats to fill on average (falling by the week) then the club would generate less than £1m after VAT by extending the GRFZ or its pricing concept to fill them (whilst the 5k fans paying Walk up prices would continue to be ripped off)

6. Inflation will OBVIOUSLY have impacted MFC and therefore has to be covered by somebody otherwise there will be a greater loss. The SC price increase will not even cover the inflation impact on the costs MFC face excluding the cost of players (wage bill and amortisation). It will raise around half a million ex VAT.

7. The Free Drink was a nice thank you from Gibson to fans who had shown massive loyalty. People saying take the price off the SC cost simply don't understand what they are saying. The pint will cost MFC about a pound, other drinks much less. They are not all redeemed. To knock the savings made by withdrawing the offer would release perhaps £10 per SC. I honestly can't believe some people moan about something that is free to them. The value of that free drink is over £100 per season to me. The cost to MFC will be around £25.
I'd scrap the scheme now however and watch the kiosks flow so much better.

8. This obsession with comparing to other clubs, or other activities in order to ascertain the value of the SC is interesting, but there are no like for likes.
Sunderland have a vanity project ground to fill, Wigan have no fans, Preston, Blackburn, Burnley etc are small places surrounded by football giants with big grounds to sell. PL clubs get over £100m extra media money and much more commercial income. Big city clubs have bigger populations to appeal to.
A concert may not be a fair comparison - even if AM are playing on the same pitch. etc etc.

9. The thing to moan about is NOT SC's, it is NOT Concessions, it is Walk Up prices.
It is one thing incentivising SC holders to continually renew, but the premium that Match day fans are asked to pay is the thing that is indefensible and does not make commercial sense.
To ask an Adult and child to pay £59 for the PNE match in West Upper, when with SC's the same 2 seats cost £34.64 is a 70% premium. No wonder then that despite playing glorious football near the top of the league there are still so very many empty seats in the West Upper. Same logic applies in other stands with gaps like North.
Filling those 2 empty seats with GRFZ Adult and Child SC pricing would generate under £22 gross for that pair.
Not everyone can commit to EVERY match in order to get ANY discount. People live remotely, there are travel costs and complexities, people have jobs and careers, they have families, budget constraints etc. The All or nothing pricing strategy is blunt, crude and has 5k empty seats even in a promotion season.
There has to be a better more creative way to package tickets, including Free kids, that don't upset SC holders, but generate more choice for fans and generate more revenue for MFC.

10. The Club is a financial basket case. It loses money every year and currently owes its Parent Group over £142m. Nobody in their right mind would take it over, let alone pay anything to own it.
As some will know, I don't have a massive amount of sympathy for Steve Gibson, as it is his decisions that have resulted in a loss in all but 2 of the years he has owned the club. He is owed the money, he has not invested it as equity (though he has put £90m of that in too). He has had complete control, so has complete accountability.
BUT, we are where we are. The Club is only a Going Concern because of Gibson's loans. The Club will make a loss every season outside the PL, unless it sells players for big profit above book value.
The attitude of some fans is mystifying. They want cheaper tickets, no price increases, yet want a strong team that costs a lot of money, and want the best facilities for the players and at the stadium. All in a world where everything has gone up by 10% since the last time they paid for their SC.

As a bloke I'm extremely aware of what Gibson is like, but ffs cut him some slack.
He has hired a great young manager; got a set up off the pitch that seems the most aligned for years; we have a team that is flying and a joy to watch; and he has provided, for the first time, transparency on the finances (to those who will bother to look with an open mind) and an obvious rationale as to why a price increase is justified and reasonable. He's also open to suggestions on a wider range of subjects than ever before.
 
Redwurzel said:
I didn't say theatre is the same but its the closest comparison for some people, because its live, in the same geographic area, a seat for 90 minutes. I was comparing walk up £26/£25 for live theatre (adult/senior) with say £27/£19 for the Stoke match walk up. Theatre yes entertainment is more guaranteed but that has to be balanced with the thrill of not knowing the outcome of a game before you go. Going to 20 to 23 theatre trips to me is the same as a season ticket, every performace is different and every match is different.

My local National League North Club charge £20/£15 walk up and facilites are from the 1960s and the standard of football is much lower than ther Championship. Walk ups tend to be quite expensive at most clubs not just the Riverside.

Posters on here are saying we are the second most expensive, well Swansea are charging £32.50 plus booking fee for seat that would be £31 to £30 at the Riverside. So based on what has been said are they the most expensive?
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Darlington is £20 walk up.
 
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