Why have we put the handbrake on..?

[Magic Man]

It's obvious by watching us this season that, compared to the majority of last season, we are very much playing with the handbrake on, why?

Granted, we have lost a lot of quality at the top end of the field, but I am absolutely baffled as to why are deciding to not commit as many bodies forward in attack. We are also much less fluid when we are building up play, a massive part of our success last year was down to the fluidity of our attacking players, however we seem to have become much more ridged, but to what gain? Riley McGree was a key part of our team last year, floating in from the left side and popping up in dangerous areas, whilst creating space for Giles to get into to cross, again, I do not understand why we have abandoned this approach. It’s widely accepted that Coulson wasn’t good enough, however he was not a defensive player, why was he, and why is now Engel being asked to rarely cross the half way line?

I think this is why we seem much, much slower in attack, because there’s much less movement / bodies in the final third which equals less options to pass to, so players hold on to the ball longer, this gives the opposition more time to get set into their defensive position and then the attack fizzles out. Latte Lath’s movement looks great, and whilst I do think it is good, I feel like it looks even better at the moment because, again, compared to last season, literally nobody is moving.

You could kind of understand it if we had went into the market and bought more solid, defensive players - but we haven't done that. The players we have been starting matches with suit the system we finished with last season, but we seem to be choosing to play differently.

 

[Ash88]

My guess is we're trying new strategies to hopefully find one that works... and we haven't been able to do that yet.

No team can continue to use the same strategy over and over again because it gets found out... Same happened under Wilder.
Even towards the back end of last season, with the quality players we had, we were starting to get found out.

Warnock found us out - Mowbray found us out - and other teams just copied what they did.

If teams come to play football - pressure us - we were (probably still are) very good at keeping the ball and playing through them. That's what happened last season.

If teams sit back and let us "do what we want" - we don't really have a definitive route to goal that doesn't involve finding a hole the opposition has left - if they don't leave the hole, we're clueless.

Teams have realised they don't have to play, they can just hit us with a sucker punch every time because our defense is our weakness. We had 60%+ possession against QPR and 9 shots on target vs. their 3.

 

[Glover_elbow]

The handbrake is on quality recruitment what follows on the pitchis inevitable

 

[Magic Man]

My guess is we're trying new strategies to hopefully find one that works... and we haven't been able to do that yet.

No team can continue to use the same strategy over and over again because it gets found out... Same happened under Wilder.
Even towards the back end of last season, with the quality players we had, we were starting to get found out.

Warnock found us out - Mowbray found us out - and other teams just copied what they did.

If teams come to play football - pressure us - we were (probably still are) very good at keeping the ball and playing through them. That's what happened last season.

If teams sit back and let us "do what we want" - we don't really have a definitive route to goal that doesn't involve finding a hole the opposition has left - if they don't leave the hole, we're clueless.

Teams have realised they don't have to play, they can just hit us with a sucker punch every time because our defense is our weakness. We had 60%+ possession against QPR and 9 shots on target vs. their 3.

But we aren't trying new strategies though, we have changed to one strategy which has completely failed in 5 league games now. We are way too narrow in everything we do. That's what is so puzzling, especially when you have the personnel to play the system which was so successful last season. Ok, the quality of the player may not be as good, but we most definitely do still have the type of players required to play the system that works.

 

[Magic Man]

The handbrake is on quality recruitment what follows on the pitchis inevitable

I think quality of recruitment is a valid point, but we were never going to replace circa 45m worth of talent - which is what last season attack has proved to be.

 

[Ash88]

But we aren't trying new strategies though, we have changed to one strategy which has completely failed in 5 league games now. We are way too narrow in everything we do.

We are. We were over reliant on playing narrow with Giles as a wide outlet last season - which is why he was always in so much space and able to make the assists he made.
We tried Coulson there - but teams already knew our gameplan and he was totally bullied out the games vs. Millwall and Coventry.

Engel is now playing much deeper than Coulson played - more of a solid back four - which we probably hoped would give Silvera (and Forss) more freedom out wide against Huddersfield.
It didn't work... So we switched to playing a left winger on the right (Silvera vs. West Brom) with McGree - and then adding a right winger on the left (Jones vs. QPR).

The plan there was probably to play even narrower, as a left winger on the right/right winger on the left would naturally come inside - to overload the area just outside the box.
This didn't work... Mainly because it left too much space in the positions behind them, and Ilias Chair was too quick for McNair on the counter attack.

That's what is so puzzling, especially when you have the personnel to play the system which was so successful last season.

The same happens to almost every manager - Wilder was successful with the way he played to begin with - until he was found out and refused to adapt.
Carrick's successful strategy last season got found out too - we only won 2 of our last 10 last season with Akpom and Archer still in the team, so the loss of talent isn't the excuse.

I actually like that Carrick is trying (although currently failing) to switch things up, instead of doing a Wilder and pretending he has some kind of unbeatable masterplan.

 

[Magic Man]

We are. We were over reliant on playing narrow with Giles as a wide outlet last season - which is why he was always in so much space and able to make the assists he made.
We tried Coulson there - but teams already knew our gameplan and he was totally bullied out the games vs. Millwall and Coventry.

Engel is now playing much deeper than Coulson played - more of a solid back four - which we probably hoped would give Silvera (and Forss) more freedom out wide against Huddersfield.
It didn't work... So we switched to playing a left winger on the right (Silvera vs. West Brom) with McGree - and then adding a right winger on the left (Jones vs. QPR).

The plan there was probably to play even narrower, as a left winger on the right/right winger on the left would naturally come inside - to overload the area just outside the box.
This didn't work... Mainly because it left too much space in the positions behind them, and Ilias Chair was too quick for McNair on the counter attack.

I am seeing it different to you in that to me it looks like we have moved to a new system (which is not working), and we are just swapping players in and out of that system in the hope that it clicks. When the old system suits the current players much better.

We were reliant on Giles to some extent, but we were still much more fluid than we have been this season and it is the rigidness which I cannot understand. Again, it's strange that we haven't even tried to play that way again now that we have brought in a much more attacking full back and we are getting beat.

 

[B_G]

I am seeing it different to you in that to me it looks like we have moved to a new system (which is not working), and we are just swapping players in and out of that system in the hope that it clicks. When the old system suits the current players much better.

We were reliant on Giles to some extent, but we were still much more fluid than we have been this season and it is the rigidness which I cannot understand. Again, it's strange that we haven't even tried to play that way again now that we have brought in a much more attacking full back and we are getting beat.

I think it's the same system but the players just aren't good enough to implement it.

Engel can't give us what Giles gave us going forward and looks just as frail defending. If not worse.
No matter what your opinion is of Smith at RB, Mcnair is a downgrade. I don't mind Smith and I thought he worked well with Forss for much of last season but I know he gets a lot of stick on here.
Silvera wastes possession too often. McGree when playing that position, very rarely loses the ball. He would bring Giles into the game. Silvera seems to try and do it all himself all the time. Also McGree offers more defensively than Silvera who doesn't really track back or close down with any purpose.
Rogers for Akpom. No comment needed.
I have no idea why Forss hasn't been playing when on the right but he was a goal threat which we've lost by playing others in that position. Forss also tracked back and helped out defensively which we've lost.

 

[Magic Man]

I think it's the same system but the players just aren't good enough to implement it.

Engel can't give us what Giles gave us going forward and looks just as frail defending. If not worse.
No matter what your opinion is of Smith at RB, Mcnair is a downgrade. I don't mind Smith and I thought he worked well with Forss for much of last season but I know he gets a lot of stick on here.
Silvera wastes possession too often. McGree when playing that position, very rarely loses the ball. He would bring Giles into the game. Silvera seems to try and do it all himself all the time. Also McGree offers more defensively than Silvera who doesn't really track back or close down with any purpose.
Rogers for Akpom. No comment needed.
I have no idea why Forss hasn't been playing when on the right but he was a goal threat which we've lost by playing others in that position. Forss also tracked back and helped out defensively which we've lost.

It's definitely a change in system as we used to attack as a 5 but now we only attack as a 4, Engel's quality doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not he can sprint up the left-hand side when we attack or not to be fair.

 

[Billy69_uk]

I would love to see what our passing stats are, and by that I mean how many time is the person with the ball stood still, passing to someone else who is also stood still.

It was one of the aspects of the QPR game that annoyed me.

 

[B_G]

It's definitely a change in system as we used to attack as a 5 but now we only attack as a 4, Engel's quality doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not he can sprint up the left-hand side when we attack or not to be fair.

Engel is still trying to get up and support as is Mcnair. They just look clueless when they get there.

 

[Ash88]

I am seeing it different to you in that to me it looks like we have moved to a new system (which is not working), and we are just swapping players in and out of that system in the hope that it clicks. When the old system suits the current players much better.

It's all opinions but there's definitely subtle changes every game for me - an example I think we'll see next game is O'Brien starting in place of Howson and playing in a more advanced role.
I also think we'll play Forss/Jones - Rogers - McGree, as O'Brien will give more attacking freedom to Forss/Jones, and hopefully pull the opposition across to give McGree more space.
It did start to happen when O'Brien came on vs. QPR - He was regularly out in a wide right position, which you don't see Howson in.

We were reliant on Giles to some extent, but we were still much more fluid than we have been this season and it is the rigidness which I cannot understand. Again, it's strange that we haven't even tried to play that way again now that we have brought in a much more attacking full back and we are getting beat.

The problem is, we can't play that way without Giles - we were too reliant on him and we didn't replace him - Coulson/Engel/Bangura are not going to get us 10+ assists from wide positions, so we need to find a new way of getting those assists elsewhere.

 

[Corcaigh_the_Cat]

Engel is still trying to get up and support as is Mcnair. They just look clueless when they get there.

Yes, as clueless as
Hackney and Howson are, as clueless as Jones and Silvera.
The team is disjointed. The flanks were attacked easily because those playing there had little support from those in front.

it was the same last season, it's why we conceded so many. Giles was an awful defender, McNair always has been.

 

[festa5]

Aside from the need for cover, is this why we've signed Bangura? Who is by all accounts very much an attacking full back.

So back to trying last year's system with him making up that 5th man in attack.

 

[Magic Man]

Engel is still trying to get up and support as is Mcnair. They just look clueless when they get there.

I don't think he is, I think for some reason he's being told to stay back. Carrick maybe doesn't trust him enough yet, or maybe he just doesn't think he's good enough to provide any value going forward, time will tell I suppose.

It's all opinions but there's definitely subtle changes every game for me - an example I think we'll see next game is O'Brien starting in place of Howson and playing in a more advanced role.
I also think we'll play Forss/Jones - Rogers - McGree, as O'Brien will give more attacking freedom to Forss/Jones, and hopefully pull the opposition across to give McGree more space.
It did start to happen when O'Brien came on vs. QPR - He was regularly out in a wide right position, which you don't see Howson in.

I'd love to see O'Brien starting, and I think you are right it would provide us with a much more attacking platform to start from. The problem Carrick has with doing that is that we are shipping goals for fun, so removing our only midfield player who can break up play at the moment could be disastrous for us going backwards. I know O'Brien is no mug and can certainly break up play, but if we're asking him to come in and play further up the field it's a risk.

The problem is, we can't play that way without Giles - we were too reliant on him and we didn't replace him - Coulson/Engel/Bangura are not going to get us 10+ assists from wide positions, so we need to find a new way of getting those assists elsewhere.

But Engel did get 10 assists last season, why buy a player like that if you aren't going to let him go past the half way line? I don't get it.

 

[Magic Man]

Aside from the need for cover, is this why we've signed Bangura? Who is by all accounts very much an attacking full back.

So back to trying last year's system with him making up that 5th man in attack.

I think this could well be the case personally. Obviously this is total conjecture, but it feels a bit like we've had a good look at Engel and thought he actually isn't going to be able to do what we brought him in to do, so we will bring the other lad we were also interested in a few months ago too.

Maybe the first five games have been one big smoke screen and we'll now revert to last years system and go on a 20 game unbeaten run and be in the top 2 on Christmas day

 

[Ash88]

I'd love to see O'Brien starting, and I think you are right it would provide us with a much more attacking platform to start from. The problem Carrick has with doing that is that we are shipping goals for fun, so removing our only midfield player who can break up play at the moment could be disastrous for us going backwards. I know O'Brien is no mug and can certainly break up play, but if we're asking him to come in and play further up the field it's a risk.

I'll probably get shot down for this one... but I think O'Brien could be one of the best midfielders in the league. He was the stand out player when Huddersfield finished 3rd two season ago.
Not sure what happened to him at Forest, but seems he had 4 - 5 bad games (all against very good teams) and then he didn't get a look in.

But Engel did get 10 assists last season, why buy a player like that if you aren't going to let him go past the half way line? I don't get it.

He did (inc. one against West Ham in the UEFA cup) - I assumed he was going to come in as a like for like Giles replacement....
I think the step up from the Danish league might be forcing us to play him more defensively.
He's been quite solid and played "okay" in my opinion... but I haven't seen him do much running. It seems like his only job is to man mark the winger.

 

[indeedido]

Akpom took so many balls deep on the turn or half turn. He opened up so much for us out wide, as well as running through the centre.
Archer for a small bloke was very good at holding the ball up, not just taking chances. His assists were a big feature, he was such an aware, intelligent player.
Ramsey was pure class and just made things happen at speed.
Forss worked incredibly hard and supported a weak full back. He scores goals.
McGree when he played, enabled Giles to get forward to provide those assists first half of the season.

We simply don't have or are choosing not to play those players.

The players brought in are nowhere near their standard. They may well develop and do not deserve stick for being who they are.
Kieran Scott on the other hand...

We recruited quantity, when we needed quality.

Chair was brilliant on saturday, a cut above anything else on the pitch. The Championship is like that. Quality stands out and if their attitude is right, they make it count. That's why we did so well last season.
We needed quality, not the cast of Ben Hur.

Carrick's Personal Shopper has gone on a wild supermarket sweep and now Michael is left wondering what the **** to do with it all.

 

[jonny_greenings_sock]

I think with a team of strangers you’d naturally get them to be a bit more conservative, most of them have been here 10 minutes. Especially when performances aren’t great anyway.

Also, of course we’re missing that quality, particularly Akpom. Someone who holds the ball up and links up like that opens up everything.

 

[Billy69_uk]

The midfield is at the core of our issues. They dont provide enough support tracking back, leaving our back 4 exposed, niether do they support the front 2 enough.

The midfield are too immobile, easily ran through or shrugged off.

McGree HAS to start the game for me, Jones is a last 20 minute impact player at best, and a complete waste of a shirt at worst.

Howson and Hackney are far too close together for far too much of the time, we need to play one or the other as they as effectively one and the same.