Who the f**** needs Europe. We have all we need here.

boromike85 said:
Bloody hell! I think we've managed outraged remainer Bingo on this thread. They're all here and frankly, it shows why having any sort of discussion with them is fruitless, pun intended. It is fine to be anti-Brexit and still agree that the article the OP posted is trash, because it is. I am confident very few of you have even read it and instead jumped at a chance to ridicule Brexit and the astronomical price rises which are on the way. We've even managed to get some of the usual slogans about blue passports and a mention of Cummings. It's quite impressive how every thread is so easily derailed for some pats on the back from the usual self-congratulators.

How many of you will actually be grown-up enough to admit that the OP, the article and the point it is trying to make is pure clickbait trash? I will happily admit that a lot of pro-Brexit articles are dire (e.g. anything the Daily Express has ever printed) but some of you are evidently too afraid to be honest and criticise something anti-Brexit because you'd far prefer to circlejerk.

Look back at my previous post. I didn't mention things being more expensive, I explained why our current import/export profile is the way it is. We could produce far more of our own food if we wanted to but it's not the best thing to do economically when we can export a load of stuff and import others. If we wanted to be self-sufficient we'd use greenhouses for the things that our climate doesn't allow but we couldn't replicate our current consumption to be self-sufficient, we'd have to change our diet. it'd also cost a lot more than importing but the cost isn't what I was talking about anyway.

The gist of the article is that we need the EU or we'll starve which isn't true. We import from the EU because it is currently the easiest and cheapest. There is nothing in my post about food prices but that's what everyone is talking about. It's about whether we will have enough to not run out of food, which we will. My point about South African Oranges was that there are other markets which we currently don't access, not can't, because EU import tariffs make it cheaper to import from Spain than South Africa.

And if we are talking about food prices then we've had threads of people bemoaning that we might get cheaper food from the USA but in that discussion chlorinated chicken is the story instead of cheaper prices so evidently cheaper prices outside the EU are possible and not everything requires a drop in standards like the US chicken.
Click to expand...

The gist of the article is that the UK can't support itself without importing food, and we have cut off our closest trading partner with no deals to obtain that food cheaper or for the same price elsewhere. It implies that we'll either run out of food or our food bill will increase. Obviously we won't run out of food, so our bills will go up. Thanks Brexit (y)
 
boromike85 said:
I know, I agree, but that wasn't the point of the article or my criticism of this thread, prices are an afterthought because others brought them up.

It is impossible to have a serious discussion about anything with everyone just cheerleading instead of reading what has been posted. There is plenty to criticise about Brexit but this article is just trashy clickbait with no real point and no substance. It would be nice for people to be grown up about it and defend the stuff that gets posted that is justified and criticised the stuff that isn't, whichever side of the debate you sit.
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Mike - agreed.
You could help the opportunity for serious discussion by being a bit careful with your language tho - just a thought
 
BoroMart said:
No one is saying we won't have bananas or oranges, simply that they will cost a lot more. You can't wish tarriffs away, however hard you try. What a cinnamon!
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Do you believe that Guatemala, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Colombia, and Honduras from whom we buy all of our bananas, are going to impose tariffs on us?
 
boromike85 said:
Bloody hell! I think we've managed outraged remainer Bingo on this thread. They're all here and frankly, it shows why having any sort of discussion with them is fruitless, pun intended. It is fine to be anti-Brexit and still agree that the article the OP posted is trash, because it is. I am confident very few of you have even read it and instead jumped at a chance to ridicule Brexit and the astronomical price rises which are on the way. We've even managed to get some of the usual slogans about blue passports and a mention of Cummings. It's quite impressive how every thread is so easily derailed for some pats on the back from the usual self-congratulators.

How many of you will actually be grown-up enough to admit that the OP, the article and the point it is trying to make is pure clickbait trash? I will happily admit that a lot of pro-Brexit articles are dire (e.g. anything the Daily Express has ever printed) but some of you are evidently too afraid to be honest and criticise something anti-Brexit because you'd far prefer to circlejerk.

Look back at my previous post. I didn't mention things being more expensive, I explained why our current import/export profile is the way it is. We could produce far more of our own food if we wanted to but it's not the best thing to do economically when we can export a load of stuff and import others. If we wanted to be self-sufficient we'd use greenhouses for the things that our climate doesn't allow but we couldn't replicate our current consumption to be self-sufficient, we'd have to change our diet. it'd also cost a lot more than importing but the cost isn't what I was talking about anyway.

The gist of the article is that we need the EU or we'll starve which isn't true. We import from the EU because it is currently the easiest and cheapest. There is nothing in my post about food prices but that's what everyone is talking about. It's about whether we will have enough to not run out of food, which we will. My point about South African Oranges was that there are other markets which we currently don't access, not can't, because EU import tariffs make it cheaper to import from Spain than South Africa.

And if we are talking about food prices then we've had threads of people bemoaning that we might get cheaper food from the USA but in that discussion chlorinated chicken is the story instead of cheaper prices so evidently cheaper prices outside the EU are possible and not everything requires a drop in standards like the US chicken.
Click to expand...
"How many of you will actually be grown-up enough to admit that the OP, the article and the point it is trying to make is pure clickbait trash?"

I voted Remain.I was disappointed that Leave won. but from the day the result was announced I accepted it. It is called democracy. I found an article that I found might be interesting to board members so posted it. I am not trying to make any point, nor am I trying to "clickbait". I do find it interesting that you managed to use the words "grown up" and "trash" in the same sentence though. Are you saying that people who don't agree with the article are not grown up?
I am 65 years old. When I was at school I was always taught to have respect for other peoples point of view, whether I agree with them or not, without resorting to insults. I have done this all my life. I think some people would do well to follow this and perhaps we could have a proper debate about any subject.
 
boromike85 said:
We could produce far more of our own food if we wanted to but it's not the best thing to do economically when we can export a load of stuff and import others. If we wanted to be self-sufficient we'd use greenhouses for the things that our climate doesn't allow but we couldn't replicate our current consumption to be self-sufficient, we'd have to change our diet. it'd also cost a lot more than importing but the cost isn't what I was talking about anyway.
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Mike.

That is nonsense. Change our diet to what? Beetles and grubs? It is centuries since this country was self-sufficient in food. You might recall from history that Germany tried to starve us into submission using U boats twice in the last century? That is before we developed a taste for avocados etc. Cost isn't what you were talking about? That is what everyone else is talking about.

In summary unless something changes in the next four months we will "crash" out of the EU with no deal. Given the utter ineptitude and self-serving nature of this government and the persistent absenteeism of our Prime Minister my conclusion is we're in for a whole world of pain inflicted by them on the behest of people like yourself who voted for Brexit and the Tories.
 
Lottowyn said:
With all due respect 1finny , I don't think anyone can say that "it will cost more" when we don't know the details of any dealings , and in fact we probably haven't made them yet.
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With all due respect, do you think we'll continue to trade tariff free with europe? Or will tariffs be applied.

Therefore it'll either cost more, or be exactly the same. Hardly worth tearing a country apart for, trade that MIGHT be the same as before but will almost certainly be worse
 
boromike85 said:
Bloody hell! I think we've managed outraged remainer Bingo on this thread. They're all here and frankly, it shows why having any sort of discussion with them is fruitless, pun intended. It is fine to be anti-Brexit and still agree that the article the OP posted is trash, because it is. I am confident very few of you have even read it and instead jumped at a chance to ridicule Brexit and the astronomical price rises which are on the way. We've even managed to get some of the usual slogans about blue passports and a mention of Cummings. It's quite impressive how every thread is so easily derailed for some pats on the back from the usual self-congratulators.

How many of you will actually be grown-up enough to admit that the OP, the article and the point it is trying to make is pure clickbait trash? I will happily admit that a lot of pro-Brexit articles are dire (e.g. anything the Daily Express has ever printed) but some of you are evidently too afraid to be honest and criticise something anti-Brexit because you'd far prefer to circlejerk.

Look back at my previous post. I didn't mention things being more expensive, I explained why our current import/export profile is the way it is. We could produce far more of our own food if we wanted to but it's not the best thing to do economically when we can export a load of stuff and import others. If we wanted to be self-sufficient we'd use greenhouses for the things that our climate doesn't allow but we couldn't replicate our current consumption to be self-sufficient, we'd have to change our diet. it'd also cost a lot more than importing but the cost isn't what I was talking about anyway.

The gist of the article is that we need the EU or we'll starve which isn't true. We import from the EU because it is currently the easiest and cheapest. There is nothing in my post about food prices but that's what everyone is talking about. It's about whether we will have enough to not run out of food, which we will. My point about South African Oranges was that there are other markets which we currently don't access, not can't, because EU import tariffs make it cheaper to import from Spain than South Africa.

And if we are talking about food prices then we've had threads of people bemoaning that we might get cheaper food from the USA but in that discussion chlorinated chicken is the story instead of cheaper prices so evidently cheaper prices outside the EU are possible and not everything requires a drop in standards like the US chicken.
Click to expand...


Real grown-ups use the term 'circle-jerk'.

We're not going to run out of food, but it will be more expensive. It seems your championing of the working class (from your middle class suburban redoubt) only really stretches to a disdain for immigrants.
 
Centralscrutinizer said:
Current WTO tariff on bananas is 33% higher than the current EU one.
Click to expand...

It is, you're right, but consider that we import more bananas than any other EU member state. It would be economic suicide for any of those countries currently selling to us not to offer favourable terms for the 1.15 million tonnes they sell us.
 
Trug said:
"How many of you will actually be grown-up enough to admit that the OP, the article and the point it is trying to make is pure clickbait trash?"

I voted Remain.I was disappointed that Leave won. but from the day the result was announced I accepted it. It is called democracy. I found an article that I found might be interesting to board members so posted it. I am not trying to make any point, nor am I trying to "clickbait". I do find it interesting that you managed to use the words "grown up" and "trash" in the same sentence though. Are you saying that people who don't agree with the article are not grown up?
I am 65 years old. When I was at school I was always taught to have respect for other peoples point of view, whether I agree with them or not, without resorting to insults. I have done this all my life. I think some people would do well to follow this and perhaps we could have a proper debate about any subject.
Click to expand...

Sorry Trug, I wasn't calling you trash, OP = Original Post, not Poster. The article itself is clickbait, and your headline post title implies that being outside of the EU means we will no longer be able to trade with them and in turn we will have food shortages.

Muttley said:
That is nonsense. Change our diet to what? Beetles and grubs? It is centuries since this country was self-sufficient in food. You might recall from history that Germany tried to starve us into submission using U boats twice in the last century? That is before we developed a taste for avocados etc. Cost isn't what you were talking about? That is what everyone else is talking about.
Click to expand...

I am in no way implying that we will ever be in a position where we need to be self-sufficient, that is the premise of OP's article, but by changing our diet I mean less meat, more crops. No need for beetles and grubs. It's a purely hypothetical situation because it will never happen. It is technically possible but obviously not using the current agricultural configurations.

Everyone is talking about cost but the article in the OP wasn't. They started talking about costs because there was nothing to support in the article. It's the old politician's trick of answering a question you want to answer instead of the ones that was asked.

LaPennaBianca said:
Real grown-ups use the term 'circle-jerk'.

We're not going to run out of food, but it will be more expensive. It seems your championing of the working class (from your middle class suburban redoubt) only really stretches to a disdain for immigrants.
Click to expand...

It's a term that is used regularly online, everyone knows what it means and it fits the situation perfectly. Adults can use terms that were invented by the younger generation. I don't see the ridicule of insults such as gammon or boomers.

It will be more expensive if the situation doesn't change, that is correct. The situation will change though. We will have trade deals with a whole host of countries, including the EU. I'm not saying on day 1, I don't have faith in Boris and co. to deliver that but Brexit isn't just a single day.

If you had any genuine recollection of anything I have ever said about immigrants, particularly in terms of farming then you will find that I only criticised the practices of farmers exploiting them in order to keep costs low and wages noncompetitive. In no way at all am I anti-immigration, so go check your facts. I am pro-control.
 
boromike85 said:
It is technically possible but obviously not using the current agricultural configurations.
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Nope.

With a population of over 66 million in the UK. Best estimate I can find is that you need 0.07 of a hectare to feed a single person for a year on a largely vegetarian diet (assuming no water shortages, crop loss, etc.). Total land area of the UK is 242,495 km2 or 24,249,500 hectares. Of that roughly 25% is arable land we have a shortfall of a little over 10 million hectares.
 
Muttley said:
Nope.

With a population of over 66 million in the UK. Best estimate I can find is that you need 0.07 of a hectare to feed a single person for a year on a largely vegetarian diet (assuming no water shortages, crop loss, etc.). Total land area of the UK is 242,495 km2 or 24,249,500 hectares. Of that roughly 25% is arable land we have a shortfall of a little over 10 million hectares.
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If, and it's a big IF, the EU were to impose punitive tariffs on food stuffs they sell to us and we had to replace that resource, it counts for only 26% of our food imports. We already produce 55% of our own food requirements.
 
Ashcroft said:
If, and it's a big IF, the EU were to impose punitive tariffs on food stuffs they sell to us and we had to replace that resource, it counts for only 26% of our food imports. We already produce 55% of our own food requirements.
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45% shortfall is a hell of a long way from self-sufficiency!

And I don't think anyone really thinks we are going to starve, but we are going to have to use more of our income to feed ourselves.
 
Muttley said:
45% shortfall is a hell of a long way from self-sufficiency!

And I don't think anyone really thinks we are going to starve, but we are going to have to use more of our income to feed ourselves.
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It's not a 45% EU sourced foods shortfall though. It's a 30% shortfall. The largest single import from the EU is wine. We are the second biggest importers of wine after the USA. Do you think that the French, Italian, Spanish and German wine growers are going to be happy if the EU prices them out of their second largest market?
Can we get wine from other countries? Yes. Do we do that already? Yes. We already have a signed agreement with Australia to continue trade in wine post-Brexit. Others will follow.

We currently import £2.6bn of fish, mostly caught in our waters by Spanish, French, Belgian and Dutch fishermen. We won't need to do that if we stand firm over fishing in UK waters, we can turn a trade deficit into a surplus.

We seem a little too keen to see only negatives. There are opportunities aplenty.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
Your various diatribes about how areas become slums would point to the fact you are anti-immigration.

And boomer isn't an insult.
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See, this is what happens when you react to the poster and don't actually try to comprehend what was said. I didn't say immigrants cause slums, I said housing poor people in poor areas cause slums. You will remember I also mentioned ex-cons like in halfway houses, alcoholic rehab centres etc. Asylum seekers are not allowed to work and so can't make any money and so can't contribute to the economic output of the area they are housed. I definitely didn't say immigrants in general because that would include all immigrants, many that do come to live and work and contribute, I said asylum seekers. They don't cause an area to become a slum, the government/council/whoever houses them in areas already suffering from economic deprivation causes areas to become slums. Maybe slums is the wrong word, it was to make a point, but change the word to area of economic deprivation which becomes a hotspot for drugs, crime and anti-social behaviour and those areas become less desirable to live in. The people that own their houses there can't afford to move out because their house prices will never rise. The landlords won't repair anything because they are not getting any capital gains so all of their margin is in ripping off their tenants.

Boomer can definitely be an insult when used in "Ok boomer" for example.
 
Ashcroft said:
If, and it's a big IF, the EU were to impose punitive tariffs on food stuffs they sell to us and we had to replace that resource, it counts for only 26% of our food imports. We already produce 55% of our own food requirements.
Click to expand...
It doesn't need to be punitive tariffs. Why would it be? It just needs to be A tariff and it'll be more expensive. Still blue passports...
 
Ashcroft said:
Do you think that the French, Italian, Spanish and German wine growers are going to be happy if the EU prices them out of their second largest market?
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Ah the enticing theory that the German car manufacturers will insist that they have free access to the UK market repackaged.

Ashcroft said:
There are opportunities aplenty.
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I wish someone would come up with one then, and quickly would be nice.

boromike85 said:
Boomer can definitely be an insult when used in "Ok boomer" for example.
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Yes, but it wasn't. And even then it isn't an insult per se. It is more of a rude dismissal.
 
Ashcroft said:
If, and it's a big IF, the EU were to impose punitive tariffs on food stuffs they sell to us and we had to replace that resource, it counts for only 26% of our food imports. We already produce 55% of our own food requirements.
Click to expand...
Tariffs are applied by the importing country not the exporter.
 
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