What is the point of Keir Starmer? After a year, we still don't know.

SuperStu said:
You're paranoid. I copied and pasted the paragraphs quoting Starmer. Again, he's the subject of this thread is he not?



Fair enough Chris. We clearly see it differently. I would've thought given the nature of Sobels quotes ("I used to think this, but now I realise this") it'd have been another chance for Starmer to repeat his New Management slogan. Instead he's chosen to show up one of his MPs. If you think that's good leadership then fair enough. (y)
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You pulled quotes from an article by Starmer which you then used to attack him with based on something that may or may not have happened, that Labour said never happened but you don't believe...you call me paranoid?

We do see things differently, and just for the record, if an MP in a party position of any persuasion goes off message they are whipped, something that has gone on for the entire time of UK parliamentary politics. Left, right or centre.
 
Chris_Boro said:
you call me paranoid?
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Yes, you're the one flapping about agendas, and HC is apparently convinced I'm Priti Patel in disguise. Paranoid is exactly the word for the two of you. Not immediately taking anything Starmer says as gospel is just healthy scepticism.

Chris_Boro said:
if an MP in a party position of any persuasion goes off message
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Again, what was said that was off message or that needed any apology? EDIT this is the point of what I was getting at. Starmer's a bit petty, bit of a control freak. In my opinion.
 
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Pog said:
When the centrists and right wing of the party refuse to accept you no matter what there’s nothing you can do as leader of a disjointed party other than giving them what they want and resigning.

They didn’t even give him a chance, they tried to remove him from day one with failed coups and leadership elections, this after he won the leadership elections twice and won them the biggest increase in Labour's vote share since 1945. They never once united behind him, which is why the party was so disjointed.

I wanted Corbyn to take a tougher and more defined stance on Brexit, but he was constantly undermined on this by those same people. They refused to accept the referendum result.

His own Brexit Secretary undermined his position at the party conference when he declared off his own back that Remain was still an option.

What was his name again? Hmmm. Was it Keith?
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Labour policy is not decided by the leader of the Party, but by consensus with members, MP's, Trade Unions etc.

The majority of these, as well as a majority in the country by October 2018, thought Brexit was a mistake and that unless the 'deal' met certain tests to pretty much keep us in the Single Market, they wanted the deal put to the people in a confirmatory vote. This was actually what should have happened, if we were being fair, reasonable and logical as a country.

It was actually Corbyn's inner circle, Milne & Co., stuck in their ideological time warp from the 1970's, that were briefing against this, leading to a confusing message the public were getting.

Remember, there were multiple marches with millions attending, an online petition got over 6 million signatures and every opinion poll since March 2017 showed a majority thought Brexit was a mistake, yet we still went ahead with it because Brexiters knew the will of the (better and more honestly informed) people would see us remain in the EU, therefore they didn't care about the will of the people anymore, if indeed they ever did.
 
SuperStu said:
Yes, you're the one flapping about agendas, and HC is apparently convinced I'm Priti Patel in disguise. Paranoid is exactly the word for the two of you. Not immediately taking anything Starmer says as gospel is just healthy scepticism.



Again, what was said that was off message or that needed any apology? EDIT this is the point of what I was getting at. Starmer's a bit petty, bit of a control freak. In my opinion.
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I'm taking issue with you using selective quotes from an article to trash Starmer, someone you clearly don't like, your narrative.

Tactics that are used by Tories to discredit rivals, if you wish to drop to their level to find any reason from any sources to attack someone you don't like then expect to be called out. Use facts, not what you want to believe happened because it helps your argument.

To answer your question in the context I framed it, Labour's message is to be pro business, what the MP said could be seen as anti-business, which would be off message.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Labour division plays into Tory hands, always has done.

So if you are Labour and you cause division, I will attack you,
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In 2016, a year into Corbyn's leadership 52 of the shadow cabinet and 11 Private Secretaries resigned in a choreographed flounce. Starmer was one of them. Fill your boots.

  1. Angela Eagle
  2. Seema Malhotra
  3. John Healey
  4. Heidi Alexander
  5. Lucy Powell
  6. Owen Smith
  7. Lord Falconer
  8. Lisa Nandy
  9. Maria Eagle
  10. Chris Bryant
  11. Lilian Greenwood
  12. Vernon Coaker
  13. Ian Murray
  14. Nia Griffith
  15. Kerry McCarthy
  16. Kate Green
  17. Gloria De Piero
  18. Karl Turner
  19. Luciana Berger
  20. Pat Glass
  21. Nick Smith
  22. Sir Keir Starmer
  23. Steve Reed
  24. Thangam Debbonaire
  25. Yvonne Fovargue
  26. Diana Johnson
  27. Toby Perkins
  28. Anna Turley
  29. Alex Cunningham
  30. Wayne David
  31. Roberta Blackman-Woods
  32. Jenny Champman
  33. Susan Elan Jones
  34. Nick Thomas-Symonds
  35. Jack Dromey
  36. Sharon Hodgson
  37. Melanie Onn
  38. Richard Burden
  39. Nic Dakin
  40. Mike Kane
  41. Andy Slaughter
  42. Alan Whitehead
  43. Andrew Gwynne
  44. Barbara Keeley
  45. Lyn Brown
  46. Sarah Champion
  47. Christina Rees
  48. Clive Efford
  49. Kevin Brennan
  50. Liz McInnes
  51. Jenny Chapman
  52. Emma Lewell-Buck
  53. Paul Blomfield
  54. Mary Glindon
  55. Stephen Kinnock
  56. Chris Matheson
  57. Neil Coyle
  58. Jess Phillips
  59. Karin Smyth
  60. Ruth Smeeth
  61. Matthew Pennycook
  62. Gerald Jones
  63. Colleen Fletcher
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
In 2016, a year into Corbyn's leadership 52 of the shadow cabinet and 11 Private Secretaries resigned in a choreographed flounce. Starmer was one of them. Fill your boots.

  1. Angela Eagle
  2. Seema Malhotra
  3. John Healey
  4. Heidi Alexander
  5. Lucy Powell
  6. Owen Smith
  7. Lord Falconer
  8. Lisa Nandy
  9. Maria Eagle
  10. Chris Bryant
  11. Lilian Greenwood
  12. Vernon Coaker
  13. Ian Murray
  14. Nia Griffith
  15. Kerry McCarthy
  16. Kate Green
  17. Gloria De Piero
  18. Karl Turner
  19. Luciana Berger
  20. Pat Glass
  21. Nick Smith
  22. Sir Keir Starmer
  23. Steve Reed
  24. Thangam Debbonaire
  25. Yvonne Fovargue
  26. Diana Johnson
  27. Toby Perkins
  28. Anna Turley
  29. Alex Cunningham
  30. Wayne David
  31. Roberta Blackman-Woods
  32. Jenny Champman
  33. Susan Elan Jones
  34. Nick Thomas-Symonds
  35. Jack Dromey
  36. Sharon Hodgson
  37. Melanie Onn
  38. Richard Burden
  39. Nic Dakin
  40. Mike Kane
  41. Andy Slaughter
  42. Alan Whitehead
  43. Andrew Gwynne
  44. Barbara Keeley
  45. Lyn Brown
  46. Sarah Champion
  47. Christina Rees
  48. Clive Efford
  49. Kevin Brennan
  50. Liz McInnes
  51. Jenny Chapman
  52. Emma Lewell-Buck
  53. Paul Blomfield
  54. Mary Glindon
  55. Stephen Kinnock
  56. Chris Matheson
  57. Neil Coyle
  58. Jess Phillips
  59. Karin Smyth
  60. Ruth Smeeth
  61. Matthew Pennycook
  62. Gerald Jones
  63. Colleen Fletcher
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Added context...not that it seems to be required these days.

"Labour in crisis: shadow ministers resign in protests against Corbyn | Jeremy Corbyn | The Guardian" https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/hilary-benn-revolt-jeremy-corbyn
 
Chris_Boro said:
Added context...not that it seems to be required these days.

"Labour in crisis: shadow ministers resign in protests against Corbyn | Jeremy Corbyn | The Guardian" https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/hilary-benn-revolt-jeremy-corbyn
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And yet despite the 63 coordinated resignations, despite the disloyalty from his own party, despite the fabricated worries about anti-Semitism/IRA support/Russian spying activities and despite 75% of newspaper stories failing to accurately report his views he nearly won.
Imagine how different things would have been if his own party had actually backed him?

But no, they caused division and that can't be denied no matter how it is spun.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
And yet despite the 63 coordinated resignations, despite the disloyalty from his own party, despite the fabricated worries about anti-Semitism/IRA support/Russian spying activities and despite 75% of newspaper stories failing to accurately report his views he nearly won.
Imagine how different things would have been if his own party had actually backed him?

But no, they caused division and that can't be denied no matter how it is spun.
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I agree with you. Doesn't mean context to your post wasn't required.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I can smell a Tory shill a mile off Superstu, you are fooling nobody mate.
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It seems many people that wouldn’t vote for a farmyard animal in a red rosette are getting labelled this on this board.

The bad news for these accusers is, there are plenty more areas where people would be blindly Tory than blindly Labour now. The red wall has gone forever unless it is earned back. The days of Monsieur Stuart Bell and his ilk taking red votes for granted are gone.
 
Chris_Boro said:
I agree with you. Doesn't mean context to your post wasn't required.
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Well the context in your link is that they didn't believe he could lead them to GE victory, and then they made damn sure that he would struggle to do just that. People think the same of Starmer but nobody has flounced yet but that may be because unlike Corbyn, Starmer has stuffed his shadow cabinet with his own people.

There was no caveat in HolgateCorner's post:
HolgateCorner said:
So if you are Labour and you cause division, I will attack you,
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BlindBoyGrunt said:
And yet despite the 63 coordinated resignations, despite the disloyalty from his own party, despite the fabricated worries about anti-Semitism/IRA support/Russian spying activities and despite 75% of newspaper stories failing to accurately report his views he nearly won.
Imagine how different things would have been if his own party had actually backed him?

But no, they caused division and that can't be denied no matter how it is spun.
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The resignations directly followed Corbyn's ineffective performance during the Brexit campaign. They were right.

They cited Corbyn would be unable to win an election. He came close, thanks to a lot of Remainers lending their votes (only to have this thrown back at them by the Corbyn inner circle that their votes were a vote condoning their Brexit stance), but those MP's were right. Twice.

Don't forget, there were also some horrendous local election results, Labour dropping behind the Tories in Scotland (and Wales at one point?) and Labour even managed to lose a seat in a by-election to the government, which never happens.

The IRA and Russian spying stuff was rubbish, but the anti-semitism was not. Corbyn didn't deal with it. Starmer has had to.
 
Lefty said:
The resignations directly followed Corbyn's ineffective performance during the Brexit campaign. They were right.
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I said it before on here but isn't it funny that you never see Alan Johnson MP cop any flack for the EU referendum. He was in charge of the Labour Remain campaign after all. But no it's all Corbyn's fault. Despite attending more events than any other politician. Here's a question, how did Corbyn's own constituency vote in the referendum? How many Labour MPs managed to deliver a remain majority in their own constituency?

Lefty said:
They cited Corbyn would be unable to win an election. He came close, thanks to a lot of Remainers lending their votes (only to have this thrown back at them by the Corbyn inner circle that their votes were a vote condoning their Brexit stance), but those MP's were right. Twice.
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It's self fulfilling isn't it? They said he wouldn't win, and then they spent years sabotaging from within, and then lo and behold - who'd have thunk it? - he didn't win. It's like saying Boro defenders taking bungs to throw games in the 60s somehow means Cloughie wasn't a good striker.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Well the context in your link is that they didn't believe he could lead them to GE victory, and then they made damn sure that he would struggle to do just that.
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It's even worse than that isn't it. Cameron stepped down the morning the referendum results came in. Boris and Gove looked like scared children on the telly. Farage and UKIP were at the peak of their influence. The moment the referendum result came in was the weakest the tories have been since before Cameron became leader, and the PLP chose that moment to tank the party. If folk want to call anyone tory shills that's who it should be aimed at.
 
SuperStu said:
I said it before on here but isn't it funny that you never see Alan Johnson MP cop any flack for the EU referendum. He was in charge of the Labour Remain campaign after all. But no it's all Corbyn's fault. Despite attending more events than any other politician. Here's a question, how did Corbyn's own constituency vote in the referendum? How many Labour MPs managed to deliver a remain majority in their own constituency?



It's self fulfilling isn't it? They said he wouldn't win, and then they spent years sabotaging from within, and then lo and behold - who'd have thunk it? - he didn't win. It's like saying Boro defenders taking bungs to throw games in the 60s somehow means Cloughie wasn't a good striker.
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The referendum was not a fptp constituency based result, so your question is a stupid one. If you want to take anything from all of this it is that we need a progressive alliance on the left, followed by electoral reform.

There is plenty of blame to go around on Brexit, Johnson can have his share.

As for the self fulfilling thing, I agree, a united Labour Party behind Corbyn from day one might just have been enough in 2017. But many of the votes it received were lent by Remainers.

The real verdict on Corbyn was in 2019, when people had seen enough of him to judge him and rather than retain many of those Remain voters, he'd alienated them. What a m0r0n.
 
Lefty said:
The referendum was not a fptp constituency based result, so your question is a stupid one.
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Wise up. Shouldn't Labour MPs have been trying to convince their constituents? If every Labour MP had gotten a majority voting remain in their own constituency don't you think that would have made quite a big aggregate difference to the overall result?
 
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