Ukraine - invasion underway

Littlejimmy said:
Excellent piece by Alastair Campbell.

alastaircampbell.org

For all the strong words today, Putin has exploited the West's weakness, and the West has helped him to do so

Depending on how current events play out, this morning’s Russian invasion of Ukraine could become one of those ‘where were you when?’ moments, like the Moon landing, Kennedy’s assassination, Mandela’s walk to freedom, 9/11 … and given how events have played out so far – by which I mean the last...
alastaircampbell.org alastaircampbell.org
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Extract:

We have the worst possible Prime Minister and the worst possible Cabinet at the worst possible time. It’s not as if there are not people in the Tory Party who could command at least some trust and confidence at this time. This piece I wrote for The New European in September on an alternative Cabinet – Tugendhat, Tobias Elwood, Johnny Mercer, Andrew Mitchell, Theresa May, Julian Smith, Greg Clark … there are more. But Johnson would prefer to have yesmen and yeswomen, people who echo rather than challenge his lies and gaslighting, people who prop him up when he breaks his own laws, people who pretend to take him seriously when the leaders of the world do not.

It is an awful situation, and Putin has to take the blame and responsibility for all that follows. But my God, we haven’t half helped him.


Amen.

Edit, don't agree with a of his choices BTW, but the actual sentiment is spot on
 
I am wondering if reports of these Tsirkon hypersonic missiles that they have are a game changer for him in his warped thinking. I can imagine there will be a lot of high alerts on the forces on ships and subs and soldiers of all nations based around Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and other parts of Eastern Europe. I can imagine the Russian subs will be looking to cut or damage undersea cables as we type. I pray to god this does not escalate.

If Europe and the USA does not stand together, united as one and come down heavy with sanctions today, we are in big trouble.
 
Its the brahmos missile you want to worry about col. Russia need sent packing before this gets any worse. At the end of the day the Russian people are the ones who will suffer in the long term.
coluka said:
I am wondering if reports of these Tsirkon hypersonic missiles that they have are a game changer for him in his warped thinking. I can imagine there will be a lot of high alerts on the forces on ships and subs and soldiers of all nations based around Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and other parts of Eastern Europe. I can imagine the Russian subs will be looking to cut or damage undersea cables as we type. I pray to god this does not escalate.

If Europe and the USA does not stand together, united as one and come down heavy with sanctions today, we are in big trouble.
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Uwefuchs said:
It feels like we are on the brink of a world war here, I hope I'm wrong but this feels like the 1930s all over again.
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It will be very one-sided ... it's not like WW1 or WW2 - Europe, UK, USA are united whatever happens

Nevermind the rest of the world

Obviously China is the major question mark - but I think they like the West's money too much
 
DrummerMan said:
It will be very one-sided ... it's not like WW1 or WW2 - Europe, UK, USA are united whatever happens

Nevermind the rest of the world

Obviously China is the major question mark - but I think they like the West's money too much
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It might be one sided but how far would it be before Putin pushes the nuclear button. This feels like a situation where the modern day Hitler starts off a tidal wave that rips around world.

I don't trust China as far as I could throw them either.

I'm really worried, not just about Eastern Europe but also about the safety of our own country and its people.
 
Uwefuchs said:
It might be one sided but how far would it be before Putin pushes the nuclear button. This feels like a situation where the modern day Hitler starts off a tidal wave that rips around world.

I don't trust China as far as I could throw them either.

I'm really worried, not just about Eastern Europe but also about the safety of our own country and its people.
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I'd rather try and stop him.in Eastern Europe than in France

Because he will continue to push if we let him
 
I think a lot of the West are assuming that Putin is a rational and sane man, if this is him trying to write his name in the history books who knows how it ends.
 
Uwefuchs said:
True, I'm just not confident that this ends in Eastern Europe.
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No it’s bleak that’s true but NATO is the border and it’s that border that Putin knows he can’t cross this. That’s why he’s taking the bits that aren’t in nato. That’s why we in nato are strengthening the borders around him.

As NATO is the one thing putin does fear.

Amazingly finland isn’t in nato which did shock me.

Putin attacks any nato member then it’s not sanctions any more then it’s war as an attack on one is an attack on all.
 
DrummerMan said:
I'd rather try and stop him.in Eastern Europe than in France

Because he will continue to push if we let him
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I'm not sure I agree with that. Re-establishing the old Soviet boundaries I can understand, but a military ground incursion into Western Europe?

The single biggest question mark for me relates to the former Soviet bloc countries which are now NATO members - an invasion there would signal a dramatic escalation.

As it stands I think the "truce" will be a takeover of Ukraine versus significant sanctions imposed by the West.
 
Seriously, how can it go further?

He doesn’t have the economic or military might, or domestic support to push deep into Europe, let alone be able to hold vast swathes of land. It’s just not possible, there’ll be bluster and he’ll use other forms of ‘warfare’ but unless he’s become reckless with his own survival or there’s an aggressive move against him, he’ll not take this further than Ukraine, and maybe other countries that don’t have a robust defence.

Edit: I’m conveniently forgetting about nuclear and wmd warfare here.
 
changingman said:
I'm not sure I agree with that. Re-establishing the old Soviet boundaries I can understand, but a military ground incursion into Western Europe?
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They said the same about Hilter - he would be 'happy' with Austria, Czech Republic, etc

Look what happened
 
Such a sad, sad day, all our thoughts should be with the people of Ukraine.

The rest of the World, without exception, should be taking measures against Russia and wondering how we've allowed Putin so much free rein over the last 22 years to be in a situation where we have no effective course of action against aggression of this kind against an allied sovereign state, politics and politicians across the globe have failed the people of Ukraine.

The lessons of history have not been learned and the warning signs from Chechnya onwards have not been heeded, Putin's influence has been allowed to spread and propagate and now, without resorting to the bloodshed of millions, we are unable to do the right thing, emasculated through reliance and finance, Putin has played a long game and now pulls the strings of the World, he can do what he wants when earlier, stronger and more impactful action would have weakened his position we have been distracted and self immersed whilst the wolf has gathered his pack.

I don't know what we do next, I fear for the people of Taiwan, Moldova and all those countries coveted by more powerful neighbours knowing there is no-one is coming to help, I despair at how toothless the UN have been and how unprepared and unwilling they have been to take decisive, significant action earlier.

Russia is a great country, full of wonderful people unfortunately it is led by a despot megalomaniac who has been intent on flexing his military muscle and supressing criticism and dissent, the hope of an internal uprising and the removal of Putin from within seems remote his actions from day one have been to gather the support of the Military forces and remove the threat of any opposition through murder, imprisonment and censorship.

War is the worst of options but it does tragically seem to be that Putin only understands the martial language of missiles and bombs, and, today, the blood and sacrifice of so many of forebears so that we may never suffer the same seems to have been shed and suffered in vain.
 
changingman said:
biggest question mark for me relates to the former Soviet bloc countries which are now NATO members - an invasion there would signal a dramatic escalation.
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No an attack there is the game changer as we are all duty bound to react inc the Uk as an attack on one is an attack on all
 
zorro_mfc said:
No it’s bleak that’s true but NATO is the border and it’s that border that Putin knows he can’t cross this. That’s why he’s taking the bits that aren’t in nato. That’s why we in nato are strengthening the borders around him.

As NATO is the one thing putin does fear.

Amazingly finland isn’t in nato which did shock me.

Putin attacks any nato member then it’s not sanctions any more then it’s war as an attack on one is an attack on all.
Click to expand...

Like I said above a lot of people are assuming Putin is sane and rational, he's getting older and maybe he might want to take the rest of us with him.

All it takes is him going into a NATO state and we could all be ****ed. History has shown us that these things can be t*t for tat and then everything escalates.
 
Uwefuchs said:
Like I said above a lot of people are assuming Putin is sane and rational, he's getting older and maybe he might want to take the rest of us with him.

All it takes is him going into a NATO state and we could all be ****ed. History has shown us that these things can be t*t for tat and then everything escalates.
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Yes it can BUT this isn’t that

could it go that way yes but this isn’t the situation as yet.
 
changingman said:
I'm not sure I agree with that. Re-establishing the old Soviet boundaries I can understand, but a military ground incursion into Western Europe?

The single biggest question mark for me relates to the former Soviet bloc countries which are now NATO members - an invasion there would signal a dramatic escalation.

As it stands I think the "truce" will be a takeover of Ukraine versus significant sanctions imposed by the West.
Click to expand...


I don’t much about the power base that Putin heads, but I don’t believe he would be allowed to move into NATO territory by his cabal. If need be I am sure he would be removed if not killed certainly arrested.

Attacking NATO has to result in a war that would have disastrous consequences for the planet.

Behaviour such as Putin’s are factored into the Drake equation which is an attempt to evaluate the chances of intelligent life being found in the cosmos.

I can see Putin being replaced internally if this looks like escalating.
 
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