Tories changing their tune on Ukraine?

[MolteniArcore]

Politics Live just now - the Tory sounding like we need some kind of plan to cease supporting Ukraine. She says that we have done our bit but the tax payer can’t be paying for it forever.

Sounds like appeasement. The other RW commentator and the guy from the US agreeing. This is what Trump will want they think.

I have no idea why the right want a stronger and emboldened Russia? I suppose there might be an economic benefit but surely we don’t want Russia thinking they can do what they want and we’ll just roll over?

 

[atypical_boro]

Politics Live just now - the Tory sounding like we need some kind of plan to cease supporting Ukraine. She says that we have done our bit but the tax payer can’t be paying for it forever.

Sounds like appeasement. The other RW commentator and the guy from the US agreeing. This is what Trump will want they think.

I have no idea why the right want a stronger and emboldened Russia? I suppose there might be an economic benefit but surely we don’t want Russia thinking they can do what they want and we’ll just roll over?

They just want to make Labour look bad.

 

[speckyget]

I have no idea why the right want a stronger and emboldened Russia

The Tories have been bankrolled by Putin's mates for years.

 

[festa5]

Wouldn't surprise me. Same shady people influencing the tories and Trump in the background.

Tories know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[TeaCider]

Not a shock.

Trump is going to throw the Ukrainians under the bus, the UK and EU don't have the will to provide the massive additional finance and support that would be needed just to maintain what the Americans are contributing right now.

 

[BobUpnDown]

False economy to withdraw support, Europe is next for Putin - he needs to be defeated ( sent back within his own boundaries )

Europe needs to come together & realise the continent is stronger as a whole not as individual countries..

 

[Littlejimmy]

The Tories have been bankrolled by Putin's mates for years.

Absolutely. That utter areshole Johnson is definitely a Russian asset.

 

[SmallTown]

They just want to make Labour look bad.

I imagine that, and Putins puppet being voted into the white house has made them swing this way

 

[FishofContemplation]

Not a shock.

Trump is going to throw the Ukrainians under the bus, the UK and EU don't have the will to provide the massive additional finance and support that would be needed just to maintain what the Americans are contributing right now.

To be honest, this is one of the very few areas where I think the orange haired one has a perspective that has merit.

Ukraine, and the general threat posed by Putin on Europe’s Borders, is first and foremost a European security problem. I would not be as isolationist as Trump on Europe. US security still depends to some degree on European security. But it’s not 1945. The combined economic clout of the EU, the UK, Norway et cetera should be able to do most of the heavy lifting. We won’t though. So we’ll be doing the bus throwing in reality. And I bet we’ll live to regret it.

 

[Otto42]

The right admire Putin, if they could they would have a similar system to him.

 

[Andy_W]

Politics Live just now - the Tory sounding like we need some kind of plan to cease supporting Ukraine. She says that we have done our bit but the tax payer can’t be paying for it forever.

Sounds like appeasement. The other RW commentator and the guy from the US agreeing. This is what Trump will want they think.

I have no idea why the right want a stronger and emboldened Russia? I suppose there might be an economic benefit but surely we don’t want Russia thinking they can do what they want and we’ll just roll over?

Tories pandering to Trump (who will pander to Putin), and by pandering I don't mean becoming mates with him, I mean pulling the UK's pants down so we can take a shafting. It's extreme weakness which would only be bad news for us. He won't be there forever, we need to be planning to cover our own backs and working with whoever is around in 2028, we need to forget about the US for the next 4 years.

No point changing policy to match the policies of the circus, and as we know the Tories are not in charge and will not be for one more day of Trump being in office.

Any economic benefit would be very short term, and isolated to particular sectors, largely internal. Russia and China or anyone linked to them won't be doing anything which favours the US or it's allies.

Long term the US needs it's allies and themselves stronger, and that's not going to happen if you're allowing long term enemies or major economical threats to get stronger and stronger.

It's not like you can ally with Russia or China either, not now at least, as they're even worse than Trump and the republicans.

 

[RavsFan]

Sounds like Trump is going to propose that Russia keeps all its stolen land and Ukraine not allowed to join NATO. I think this is why Ukraine invaded a small part of Russia to barter with. Ukraine will be given the choice of that or cutting off all aid, so Hobson’s choice really.

Trump a hero, Putin saves face and claims a victory. Trump lifts their sanctions on Russia. Russia then builds up its financial reserves again, and its weaponry. Europes appeasing leadership crawl back in their boxes and think phew don’t need to increase spending on defence. Once Trumps term is up Russia having built its reserves up again goes back in big style. Any deal does not stop the war, it merely pauses it for Russia’s benefit. NATO with the USA in it will be a dead duck.

 

[dooderooni]

Sounds like Trump is going to propose that Russia keeps all its stolen land and Ukraine not allowed to join NATO. I think this is why Ukraine invaded a small part of Russia to barter with. Ukraine will be given the choice of that or cutting off all aid, so Hobson’s choice really.

Trump a hero, Putin saves face and claims a victory. Trump lifts their sanctions on Russia. Russia then builds up its financial reserves again, and its weaponry. Europes appeasing leadership crawl back in their boxes and think phew don’t need to increase spending on defence. Once Trumps term is up Russia having built its reserves up again goes back in big style. Any deal does not stop the war, it merely pauses it for Russia’s benefit. NATO with the USA in it will be a dead duck.

Sounds about right in my opinion.

 

[Andy_W]

Sounds like Trump is going to propose that Russia keeps all its stolen land and Ukraine not allowed to join NATO. I think this is why Ukraine invaded a small part of Russia to barter with. Ukraine will be given the choice of that or cutting off all aid, so Hobson’s choice really.

Trump a hero, Putin saves face and claims a victory. Trump lifts their sanctions on Russia. Russia then builds up its financial reserves again, and its weaponry. Europes appeasing leadership crawl back in their boxes and think phew don’t need to increase spending on defence. Once Trumps term is up Russia having built its reserves up again goes back in big style. Any deal does not stop the war, it merely pauses it for Russia’s benefit. NATO with the USA in it will be a dead duck.

That's not Trump's proposal, that's what Russia were wanting to propose as part of their cease fire terms, and Ukraine won't even come to the table with those terms, and rightly so, good for Zelensky. It's not going to happen, the war will continue until Russia leave or fully take over, and they don't have the ability to do the later, even if the US pulls funding. It will just make it last longer I think.

Ukraine have nothing to gain and everything to lose by giving up, and later on that will leave Russia as a larger long term threat to the EU and NATO whilst Putin is still there. The EU and NATO know this, so will do all they can to keep funding, as it's better spending less to fund now, than having to need to spend 10x more in a few years when he brings the fight to the EU or NATO. Similar applies to the US, the proxy war is cheaper for them than a real war in 10-20 years or whatever.

I'm not sure if he has the stones to lift sanctions on Russia, not unless he wants to cut ties with the EU and the rest of NATO, and doing either of those will really not help serve the US and it's security, and we all know how paranoid the republicans are about that.

Anyway, this is still months away from inauguration and even more from actually getting the changes through to enable him to even do this.

 

[festa5]

Sounds about right in my opinion.

Also wouldn't be surprised if a compromise like that was agreed between Trump and Putin ages ago.

Not sure Zelensky will roll over so easily mind. But might not have a choice.

Looking forward to the general's thoughts on the matter when borolad next hears from him.

 

[ThePrisoner]

To be honest, this is one of the very few areas where I think the orange haired one has a perspective that has merit.

Ukraine, and the general threat posed by Putin on Europe’s Borders, is first and foremost a European security problem. I would not be as isolationist as Trump on Europe. US security still depends to some degree on European security. But it’s not 1945. The combined economic clout of the EU, the UK, Norway et cetera should be able to do most of the heavy lifting. We won’t though. So we’ll be doing the bus throwing in reality. And I bet we’ll live to regret it.

If (when) Trump throws Ukraine to Putin the EU/UK will not dare to go against Trump by trying to support Ukraine's independence. The 100k US troops and dozens of military bases across Europe will be used to overthrow any dissenting client European state.

 

[Andy_W]

If (when) Trump throws Ukraine to Putin the EU/UK will not dare to go against Trump by trying to support Ukraine's independence. The 100k US troops and dozens of military bases across Europe will be used to overthrow any dissenting client European state.

Why not? Trump is only there 4 years, probably 3-3.5 years to go by the time any major decisions he can influence make it through to the ground. Russia has been a nightmare for Europe, itself and the EU for centuries, and will be for long after Trump has gone.

It's not just Ukraine's independence which is being fought for, it's standing up to a nutcase dictator. It would be the US weakening NATO, and cause major concern for Russia's neighbouring NATO members, who would stand up for themselves and each other.

What happens if Trump palls up to Putin and then Putin goes after a NATO country? He would be more likely to just try and pull out of NATO than he would try and help NATO, and then as soon as he's gone the US would be back in NATO again in no time, as they're far stronger within it and with allies.

The US are more likely to be kicked out of the EU/ European countries than be able to do any overthrowing on foreign soil, especially NATO countries. They've not exactly got a great track record of winning away from home, most don't.

 

[TeessideCleveland]

They just want to make Labour look bad.

And align with Trump?

 

[ForssAwakens]

Politics Live just now - the Tory sounding like we need some kind of plan to cease supporting Ukraine. She says that we have done our bit but the tax payer can’t be paying for it forever.

Sounds like appeasement. The other RW commentator and the guy from the US agreeing. This is what Trump will want they think.

I have no idea why the right want a stronger and emboldened Russia? I suppose there might be an economic benefit but surely we don’t want Russia thinking they can do what they want and we’ll just roll over?

Because the Russians have invested in the right

 

[Andy_W]

Because the Russians have invested in the right

I think by Russians the Russian state have meddled enough to cause destabilisation abroad, but yeah that has cost money/ been an investment for them, and one which pays dividends or they wouldn't do it. They will continue to do this no matter who is in power, this is the long game for them. Pointless appeasing the Russian state, as they are never going to be on our side or the US side, dems or republicans, certainly not long term.

But, by Russians, this could mean the oligarchs too, and they want it over, as the war is bad for their bottom line, as well as having assets frozen etc, and there are two ways to solve it for them.

A: Convince Putin to give up and go home, and they seemingly have been laying pressure on with this, eventually that pressure will collapse Putin. Difficult to say on timeframes though, for a Putin or full system collapse, depends how much support Ukraine gets, but it's not going to dry up, and they will fight until they can't fight no more.

B: Give back handers to leaders and vocal members of foreign nations, to try and get them to change party/ national policy and change world opinion (unlikely in the sane world) which enables Russia to keep Ukraine.

The weak oligarchs will push for B, and it won't get them very far, the stronger ones will still push for A, and that's only a matter of time and money.

Problem for B is that won't work in the UK as labour are now in charge, and far less susceptible to back handers. I know Starmer likes a Taylor Swift ticket (big deal), but he's not going to be receiving and/ or declaring a free new yacht from some rich Russian etc. The Tories might, but they're not in power, and won't be when Trump's term ends.

As much as Trump might want B, Ukraine doesn't want B and they have the most say. The EU don't want B either, and neither should/ does the UK.

Now is not the time to be soft with Trump or Russia etc, and I don't expect they will be. I think the UK and EU will play nice to a degree, but will ultimately just try and bide time until Trump's crawled back in his hole.