Laughing
Well-known member
Let me see if I have your argument right before I start making fun of it. You think Labour would have also ignored the advice from the SAGE committee, so that excuses Johnson's cabinet? Is that your argument?
To All The Tory Voters
- Thread starter Plazmuh
- Start date
Laughing
Well-known member
Address my point about not voting then we can have a discussion Cooper
Fattimo Maccarone
New member
Spot on and that is probably 90% of country with the rest of right and left telling us what to think UTB
r00fie1
Well-known member
Morning Mike.
Now I understand the points your are making I agree whole-heartedly:
Its important we discriminate between Primary Care and Secondary Care.
Primary Care [GP Surgeries and Community Services]:
Since the Government separated Primary and Secondary Care, GP`s have the responsibility to audit and budget each service [including staffing] they provide. [Like a private company inside the health service].
Services are provided with resources by independent Care Commissioning Groups [in preparation for complete privatisation].
CCG`s arent restricted in the geographical practice areas and services they cover. Their priority is providing services as cheaply as possible - those which may be costly [on a bottom - line priority] have been closed [eg: Learning Difficulty].
The quality and provision of services has diminished and surgeries have closed.
Patients have been forced to travel many miles from home to access a GP and "local" services. - even in urban areas where a patient list can be 4000+.
These CCG`s are not directly accountable to the public or local authorities.
They are accountable to NHS England [and some private sponsors] on the basis that their services are "efficient" [cheap] and at the lowest cost per capita.
I agree with you entirely, that the focus of Professional Qualified Clinicians has to be the Patient, not the audit book. Whilst GP surgeries and CCG`s run "Public" services, pressure is placed on the shoulders of Doctors and Senior Healthcare Practitioners to "account" for every penny spent or face redundancy and closure. This means more patients are excluded from service access and effectively reduces the quality of life.
"Savings" and "efficiency" are euphemisms for CUTS, make no mistake about it. You cant compare the cost of providing a defibulator and a mental Health Consultant to a private business. Its not the point of delivery which is the problem: the focus has to be the private companies who take money out of the service - like Serco and Arriva. It has to be focused on the cost of accountants and the adoption of the Business Model by successive governments, which focuses on profit per head, not poorly patients.
The real "cost" to the nation is a population with a lower quality of physical and mental health: it means patients not receiving emergency services at home and being forced to wait for community transport [if it exists]. It means telephone appointments and more barriers to service access - Unqualified Receptionists asking clinical questions of patients who want a GP appointment - to reduce the cost to the CCG`s [who put in the lowest tender to provide services] irrespective of the effect on patients. It excludes people who require a service and ultimately pushes patients into emergency Walk-In Centres and Accident Emergencies.
Reducing the "cost" on one service by transferring it to other sectors of the health service.
Its not "saving money" - its pushing debt - CUTS - around the service.
The ramifications of the business model in the NHS for patients is a poorer quality of life, and a return of diseases and conditions [like ricketts] which we hoped had been eliminated decades ago. It means the most vulnerable people [children / elderly / those with other physical and mental health issues] become excluded and live in health poverty.
The only way to provide effective healthcare at all levels is to keep it local - a national service with regional and area authorities - who know the demographics of their local population, and ensure they are accountable to the local population through Local Authorities, emergency Services and Patients Panels.
We shouldnt despair, otherwise we have given up. We have seen our NHS emmersed in the water of chaos of the "for profit" model. It doesnt mean we have to wait for a change of Government or that we have to accept it. Many local services have been saved by local campaigns and protests - but you wont see that in the local or national media.
The ideology that has driven cuts, fragmentation and privatisation has no compassion or morals, other than to give our NHS to private pockets - whose top priority is providing profits and power to shareholders - who arent in anyway accountable.
boromike85
Well-known member
I've already given one, football. You don't employ Messi as manager of Barcelona when he is 26 because he's the best footballer, you wait until he's not the best and he's proven he is fit to be a manager by taking the appropriate qualifications.
The same thing happens in loads of industries but you get people moving into other industries, you don't get experienced managers applying to be a nurse manager so it is always done by someone with no management experience. In a hospital the management jobs are mostly coordination (rotas etc) and it doesn't need someone who is an expert in their field to do that. Keep the experts doing what they've trained to do and employ someone who can put a rota together to do that. There aren't other industries to bring more people in to clinical roles from so they need to be protected.
There is a lot to be learnt from the private sector. They wouldn't accept the really poor performance levels we get from some consultants. One of my areas I look at is consultant productivity and it is awful at times. Clinics cancelled, not enough patients booked in etc but nobody is tracking it. Consultants will often have 1 day of the week for non clinical activities where they have no requirement to be anywhere. They never take those days as annual leave which means their leave days are always on clinical days so they don't see as many patients as they should annually.
bear66
Well-known member
Just come to our foodbank if you really want to know the misery imposed on some people's lives.
C
Cooper671
Guest
Not sure how that qualifies if someone is capable of doing some work or not. Unless you carry out assessments at the foodbank. I don’t doubt there are people in an awful situation.... it doesn’t mean they should classed as unfit for work if they can do something
bear66
Well-known member
I wouldn't trust the government (or the private minions they subcontract) to fairly assess, so I'd trust my judgement rather than tick boxers any day.
ticker_tape
Well-known member
I think those jobs ended up in North East Asia to give them industries to stave off the threat of Communism in that area. Idle hands and all that.
Nobby_Barnes
Well-known member
Who knows Laughing ? Your argument is just conjecture...
bear66
Well-known member
As was yours. But at least Laughing's conjecture has some merit.
ticker_tape
Well-known member
Reaction to it was slow despite advice, lots of deaths could have been avoided. The Covid Party.
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Cooper671
Guest
As suspected you have no knowledge of the assessment. Certainly is not a tick box exercise and the private contractor doesn’t make the decision either.... but I’m sure you know that
I’d go with a health care professional, various evidence and the persons own input than the judgement of a random in a foodbank.
bear66
Well-known member
I also rely on the judgement of job centre employees who ensure, as best as possible, that people badly treated by the system are cared for by us. They know the system is flawed as well.As suspected you have no knowledge of the assessment. Certainly is not a tick box exercise and the private contractor doesn’t make the decision either.... but I’m sure you know that
I’d go with a health care professional, various evidence and the persons own input than the judgement of a random in a foodbank.
boromike85
Well-known member
Not deliberately but after reading a summary of it then I suppose it fits in one sense. Although, the problem I have in the NHS is not necessarily that they are incompetent but that it is a waste of a finite resource. They can do a job there but it's not the best use of them.
To go back to the football analogy I can borrow an example from another of the board's topics today. Stuani. Capable footballer playing out of position on the right so both he and the team are less effective than if he was playing up front with someone suited to the right wing playing on the right instead.
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Cooper671
Guest
Not quite sure why a work coach in the job centre referring a person to a foodbank would anyway refer that the person wasn’t fit to work. Surely it means they need assistance. As they would if they were on JSA/UC. ESA would still pay the same amount.
Also a work coach has no training or understand of the WCA therefore is not in a position to pass judgement on someone’s ability to work or not
Laughing
Well-known member
No my argument is not conjecture. I said the tories locked down after SAGE advised them to. You then began the conjecture by engaging in a bit of whataboutery.
The fact is Johnson ignored SAGE for a further 10 days before locking down that is a fact. To argue Labour would have been no better is nonsense, we don't know. It really is a silly, ill thought out argument.
boromike85
Well-known member
The 10 day wait isn't 100% true. The government tried to delay lockdown by advising people and businesses to self-impose lockdown. A good chunk of the country listened but unfortunately too many didn't and businesses also refused to shut because they wouldn't be eligible for support/insurance if they closed when it wasn't mandatory to do so.
I had already started working from home when lockdown was imposed and hadn't been to any shops/pubs/restaurants for over a week as an example.
I know someone who’s worked for the DWP for a long time; they have targets like any other job sadly the targets are based on how many people they sanction and send to decisions makers- if they don’t send enough they’ll get it in the neck.
How anyone can defend this shower after the gross incompetence this year is unbelievable. I totally appreciate people have different views and vote for whoever but to blindly support policies that have killed people and hurt the poorest in society is staggering. We should be holding the government to account including when he lies regarding child poverty amongst numerous issues.
How anyone can defend this shower after the gross incompetence this year is unbelievable. I totally appreciate people have different views and vote for whoever but to blindly support policies that have killed people and hurt the poorest in society is staggering. We should be holding the government to account including when he lies regarding child poverty amongst numerous issues.