This Lindsay Hoyle business

Chris_Boro said:
Not at all, Hoyle is not a good speaker and is weak, which shows at every PMQ's.
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Agree.

Chris_Boro said:
However not a coerced, intimidated or blackmailed one as previously alleged.
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Maybe, maybe not. Nothing proved either way on that front. And no investigation now as highlighted on this thread. Guess we'll never know unless/until someone writes some tell all memoirs in 20 odd years.

Chris_Boro said:
Of course they would have wanted her to speak.
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Not sure its an of course. She doesn't have the party whip at the moment and there's been loads of documented abuse at her from Labour MPs and staff. It's not like she couldn't say anything critical of Labour...?
 
Hoyle is a disaster as the speaker. He simply has no obvious skills which would make him suitable for the role, but maybe that is why he's in it.
 
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SuperStu said:
Not sure its an of course. She doesn't have the party whip at the moment and there's been loads of documented abuse at her from Labour MPs and staff. It's not like she couldn't say anything critical of Labour...?
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Why would she want to say anything other than in response to the abuse aimed at her and demand answers from Sunak? (PMQ's)

If she wants to criticise Labour, she has many platforms in which to do so.
 
SuperStu said:
Yes maybe. As we discussed in the other thread about the donors comments, I do think Abbotts treatment from Labour MPs is relevant. It all feeds in to our political culture. It's not coincidence that she receives the most abuse of our MPs. And who knows, maybe she would have phrased any question she asked in a "pox on both your houses" sort of fashion.
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She'd certainly feel more inclined to criticise both major parties as an Independent but she's asked for the Labour whip to be returned so I'm fairly certain she wouldn't use PMQs to level criticism at the respective leadership of both parties in equal measures.

SuperStu said:
How would blocking Abbott have helped the tories? Just one fewer question?
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Sunak can't control himself at PMQs. You can just imagine him telling Abbott to accept the apology and 'move on'.

SuperStu said:
Worth remembering that the convention with PMQs is that MPs not on the order paper can try to catch the speakers eye, and the speaker can choose to call on them, and PMQs has overran the 30 minutes many times. So Hoyle certainly could have let Abbott speak without breaking any conventions.
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Yes I agree and I'm certainly not defending Hoyle on that score.
 
Putting aside Superstuā€™s conspiracy theories, itā€™s not a good subject this abject right wing and very personal racism by the Tory Partyā€™s biggest donor is it?

This country is sinking into racial division and culture wars enough as it is under this truly despicable Tory government and maybe Hoyle thought Abbot would stray from the purpose of PM questions into other areas which would fan the flames rather than calm things down.
 
When a group of over privileged white men are making allegations, and passing their bloated opinions on what is, or is not racism while the black subject of that attack is trying to make herself visible to make comment and being totally ignored. Itā€™s a very f****d up situation.
Screw the all three of them Starmer, Sunak and the half man who is appointed to be the guardian of the members. Atrocious from all of them.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Putting aside Superstuā€™s conspiracy theories
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It's this sort of belittling nonsense which leads to the more overt division we see elsewhere.

I get that you want to see Starmer and Labour as some beacon of light, but the reality, as made painfully clear by Diane Abbott herself, is that there are people within the Labour party who ARE just as bad when you take into account expectations.

A Tory donor being a Nazi wouldn't surprise me.

A Labour MP or staffer being racist does.

The tribalism that centrist-central are displaying with regards Starmer and Labour reminds me of the Geordies getting behind the Saudi takeover despite the appalling human-rights record.
 
Scrote said:
The tribalism that centrist-central are displaying with regards Starmer and Labour reminds me of the Geordies getting behind the Saudi takeover despite the appalling human-rights record.
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Didn't you just call out someone else for belittling nonsense? People are able to have a different political opinion to you without being compared to those who turn a blind eye to human rights atrocities.
 
Alzi said:
Didn't you just call out someone else for belittling nonsense? People are able to have a different political opinion to you without being compared to those who turn a blind eye to human rights atrocities.
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"centrist-central".

Belittling nonsense comes in many forms, often delivered by hypocrites.
 
Alzi said:
Didn't you just call out someone else for belittling nonsense? People are able to have a different political opinion to you without being compared to those who turn a blind eye to human rights atrocities.
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So turning a blind eye to racial abuse is okay?

Diane Abbot says she was racially abused by people in the Labour party. The Forde report agrees with her. It isn't 'belittling nonsense' if it's factual.

People can have any political opinion they want but you can't claim to be the good guys whilst actively making excuses when their 'team' gets it badly wrong.
 
Scrote said:
So turning a blind eye to racial abuse is okay?

Diane Abbot says she was racially abused by people in the Labour party. The Forde report agrees with her. It isn't 'belittling nonsense' if it's factual.

People can have any political opinion they want but you can't claim to be the good guys whilst actively making excuses when their 'team' gets it badly wrong.
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You are putting words into my mouth, feel free to quote where I said that. Having a different view to you about Starmer and Labour does not make somebody a racist or mean someone is turning a ā€œblind eyeā€.

Itā€™s disgusting what has happened to Abbott. Any form of racism is wrong.

Out of interest did you think Starmer was right to remove the whip from Abbott for her own comments?
 
Alzi said:
Out of interest did you think Starmer was right to remove the whip from Abbott for her own comments?
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Scrote said:
Labour have no choice but to remove the whip.
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Alzi said:
You are putting words into my mouth, feel free to quote where I said that. Having a different view to you about Starmer and Labour does not make somebody a racist or mean someone is turning a ā€œblind eyeā€.
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You said I was belittling people by comparing them to the Geordies who turn a blind-eye to human-rights abuses.

I'm asking why, given the evidence that Labour party officials (MPs and/or staffers) racially abused Diane Abbott, you think the comparison is "belittling nonsense"?
 
Scrote said:
You said I was belittling people by comparing them to the Geordies who turn a blind-eye to human-rights abuses.

I'm asking why, given the evidence that Labour party officials (MPs and/or staffers) racially abused Diane Abbott, you think the comparison is "belittling nonsense"?
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Labour donā€™t always get it right, no argument from me. Are you suggesting Starmer is racist or deliberately turning a ā€œblind eyeā€ to racism? I disagree if so.

Personally Iā€™d like Abbot to have the whip restored as I donā€™t think what she said was inherently racist but it was offensive and unnecessary. Sheā€™s a good MP and has apologised.

Rayner has voiced some strong views about it all today interestingly.
 
LessoftheLip said:
Except that your labelling of people as 'centrists' is quite obviously delivered as an insult. You love to do it and clearly take satisfaction from it.

Yes I'm a centrist, left leaning.

Where's the hypocrisy in that?
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"Centrist-central" as a compounded shorthand for "the people on fmttm who identify as centrists" is highly unlikely to set the waterworks off in grown adults. And yes, that is meant to be patronising.

How is it an insult to use a pre-defined political label which you choose to use for yourself? What would you like me to use in future?
 
Abbotts had articles in the Guardian and Independent today with criticism for the Labour Party as well as the tories included. šŸ˜®

So... anyone willing to admit maybe it was possible that she would have asked something in PMQs embarrassing to Starmer yesterday?
 
Alzi said:
Are you suggesting Starmer is racist or deliberately turning a ā€œblind eyeā€ to racism?
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I suppose that depends on how broad your definition of racism is - which brings us full-circle to Abbott's initial exclusion. I don't think SHE is racist but I do think that what she said was ill-considered.

I also think that Starmer has been happy to emply double-standards across the party when it comes to how he deals with racism, bullying etc.
 
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