This Lindsay Hoyle business

LessoftheLip said:
Except that your labelling of people as 'centrists' is quite obviously delivered as an insult. You love to do it and clearly take satisfaction from it.

Yes I'm a centrist, left leaning.

Where's the hypocrisy in that?
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Centrists are pragmatic and the opposite of extremist. It could never be an insult to me.
 
BoroMart said:
Centrists are pragmatic and the opposite of extremist. It could never be an insult to me.
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I think you're taking some serious liberties with the generally understood definitions of those terms but glad that you don't feel insulted.

The big problem I have with centrism is the idea that you can walk two paths. Politics, in the UK at least, doesn't work like that (which is why for about a hundred years (don't quote me on that)) centrists just called themselves Liberals (or some variation thereof).
 
SuperStu said:
Abbotts had articles in the Guardian and Independent today with criticism for the Labour Party as well as the tories included. 😮

So... anyone willing to admit maybe it was possible that she would have asked something in PMQs embarrassing to Starmer yesterday?
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Yes she maybe would but personally I don’t think that is why Hoyle did not call on her to speak or that he is in league with Starmer.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Yes she maybe would but personally I don’t think that is why Hoyle did not call on her to speak or that he is in league with Starmer.
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Nope he’s just incompetent and not capable of common sense. Bercow would have had no qualms about extending the session for 10 minutes but Hoyle has apparently promised not to do that as MPs don’t like being late for lunch ffs.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Yes she maybe would but personally I don’t think that is why Hoyle did not call on her to speak or that he is in league with Starmer.
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Whilst you might not think that, plenty of people have posted to suggest that Hoyle was only trying to help Sunak save face. Surely this intervention from Abbott puts that firmly back in the long grass and again, leads to the conclusion that it was Starmer he was aiding?
 
Scrote said:
It's this sort of belittling nonsense which leads to the more overt division we see elsewhere.

I get that you want to see Starmer and Labour as some beacon of light, but the reality, as made painfully clear by Diane Abbott herself, is that there are people within the Labour party who ARE just as bad when you take into account expectations.

A Tory donor being a Nazi wouldn't surprise me.

A Labour MP or staffer being racist does.

The tribalism that centrist-central are displaying with regards Starmer and Labour reminds me of the Geordies getting behind the Saudi takeover despite the appalling human-rights record.
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No intention to belittle Superstu he’s a good poster and I see him posting about the Boro as well so not just an undercover politician.

I see you have tried to associate Starmer and Labour supporters with the Saudi regime above? Has the Tory election campaign started this early?
 
Scrote said:
Whilst you might not think that, plenty of people have posted to suggest that Hoyle was only trying to help Sunak save face. Surely this intervention from Abbott puts that firmly back in the long grass and again, leads to the conclusion that it was Starmer he was aiding?
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No the point is that nobody really knows what Abbot would have said or why Hoyle didn’t call her to speak.

But what I will say is that as a society we should be concentrating on getting rid of the racism rather than using it as a political whataboutery tool.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I see you have tried to associate Starmer and Labour supporters with the Saudi regime above?
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How so?

I asked if turning a blind-eye to racial abuse was somehow intrinsically different from turning a blind-eye to human-rights abuses.

Do you think it is?

Do you think Abbott is lying when she says she was racially abused by Labour officials?

HolgateCorner said:
No the point is that nobody really knows what Abbot would have said or why Hoyle didn’t call her to speak.
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But we can make an educated guess, which is what we have to assume Hoyle did?
 
Scrote said:
I think you're taking some serious liberties with the generally understood definitions of those terms but glad that you don't feel insulted.

The big problem I have with centrism is the idea that you can walk two paths. Politics, in the UK at least, doesn't work like that (which is why for about a hundred years (don't quote me on that)) centrists just called themselves Liberals (or some variation thereof).
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Absolutely no liberties at all, and I’m left leaning centrist.

It’s not ‘walking two paths’. It’s recognising that governance, society, opinions they’re not binary. They don’t have to be extremes. There aren’t “two paths”. There are millions of paths
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
But how can you hope to defeat racism if you are forced to take a piecemeal approach to it for fear of being accused of whataboutery? Surely it must be addressed wherever it raises its head.
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Yes as long as you are calling out the racism rather than scoring a political point, there is a difference. All that has happened with Abbot is that the spinners at a number of levels including on here (albeit this is just a Boro board) have made Hoyle the issue now so that the spotlight has gone off the racist Tory donor. The heat is off him now.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Yes as long as you are calling out the racism rather than scoring a political point, there is a difference. All that has happened with Abbot is that the spinners at a number of levels including on here (albeit this is just a Boro board) have made Hoyle the issue now so that the spotlight has gone off the racist Tory donor. The heat is off him now.
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I've been calling out the problems with Labour (probably more than with the Tories to be fair, but that's because I was a Labour Party member for years and kind of expected better) but when I brought it up on the "Tory Donor" thread I received a fair bit of chew.
 
SuperStu said:
Abbotts had articles in the Guardian and Independent today with criticism for the Labour Party as well as the tories included. 😮

So... anyone willing to admit maybe it was possible that she would have asked something in PMQs embarrassing to Starmer yesterday?
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The most obvious reason she wasn't called was because Hoyle would have had to depart from the recognised protocol and given the pantomime caused by his decision to do so over the Palestinian vote, I can understand why he didn't here.

The right thing to do would be to call her and depart from the protocol, but I can also understand why he chose not to.
 
Scrote said:
How so?

I asked if turning a blind-eye to racial abuse was somehow intrinsically different from turning a blind-eye to human-rights abuses.

Do you think it is?

Do you think Abbott is lying when she says she was racially abused by Labour officials?


But we can make an educated guess, which is what we have to assume Hoyle did?
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You may not have intended it, but I think you were saying Labour supporters are racist by association because a Labour official has been accused of racism?

With regard to the Geordies, I don’t often defend them but they have zero control who buys their football club, it does not mean the people of Newcastle have no regard for human rights themselves.
 
Scrote said:
"Centrist-central" as a compounded shorthand for "the people on fmttm who identify as centrists" is highly unlikely to set the waterworks off in grown adults. And yes, that is meant to be patronising.

How is it an insult to use a pre-defined political label which you choose to use for yourself? What would you like me to use in future?
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I was quite clear in saying that you deliver the term centrist as an insult. But I'm not insulted because as I explained I'm proud to be in the centre, left leaning.

Do you understand?
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
I've been calling out the problems with Labour (probably more than with the Tories to be fair, but that's because I was a Labour Party member for years and kind of expected better) but when I brought it up on the "Tory Donor" thread I received a fair bit of chew.
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There is no excuse for racism anywhere, if Labour have racists (and I have no doubt they do, it’s a big organisation) then they need to be weeded out.
 
HolgateCorner said:
You may not have intended it, but I think you were saying Labour supporters are racist by association because a Labour official has been accused of racism?

With regard to the Geordies, I don’t often defend them but they have zero control who buys their football club, it does not mean the people of Newcastle have no regard for human rights themselves.
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No. I'm saying that a bunch of Newcastle supporters were happy to turn a blind-eye to reports of human-rights abuses, and, I'm saying that a bunch of Labour supporters are happy to turn a blind-eye to reports of racial-abuses.

Not all Newcastle supporters and not all Labour supporters.
 
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