The problem with our fans.

[indeedido]

Oh absolutely, you won’t find me arguing that we’re run fantastically. All I’m saying is we have no inherent right to be up there which some fans seem to believe we have. Brighton are an exceptionally well ran club, plus they’re in a desirable area to live, Palace too, we don’t have the benefit of that. To bring quality up here we have to pay higher wages and the reality is we’re not in a position to do so. We are seen (to those who don’t know Middlesbrough) as similar to Stoke. A club that was up there for a while and are now playing around their level.

Burnley have been well ran too in recent years, they’re probably a more realistic model for us to follow.

If you don't believe Middlesbrough is a lot bigger club than Millwall or Coventry, then I'm not sure what metrics (or medication) you are using.

That other clubs (Burnley, Bournemouth, Brentford, Brighton, Sheff Utd, Palace, Luton, Wolves, Forest, Fulham) are all PL, means Middlesbrough should expect to be able to have more than 1 season in 15 in it.
We have no divine right to be PL, nor do we have to cap our hopes and expectations at treading water in the Championship or below, and accept it happily because it keeps our local man invincible - the one who has made the bad calls.

For some the reasoning seems to be.
1. We can only be as we are because we don't want foreign ownership, or anything remotely unpleasant. (Foreign ownership is not a pre-requisite for being unpleasant)
2. We can only be what we are because we are such a small catchment area/fan base.(Compare to the 10 above, many of whom have massive competition across or around their catchment areas of often smaller population).
3. We can only be what we are because nobody else could run us better than Gibson. (£140m in debt and £120m negative shareholder value and 1 season in 15 in the top flight).
4. We can only be what we are because nobody ever wants to come and live here. (Burnley, Luton, Wolverhampton, South London, Sheffield, Nottingham are not exactly Hampstead themselves)

Have a look again at those 10 clubs above. If they are above us then we have not done well.

 

[Redwurzel]

Oh absolutely, you won’t find me arguing that we’re run fantastically. All I’m saying is we have no inherent right to be up there which some fans seem to believe we have. Brighton are an exceptionally well ran club, plus they’re in a desirable area to live, Palace too, we don’t have the benefit of that. To bring quality up here we have to pay higher wages and the reality is we’re not in a position to do so. We are seen (to those who don’t know Middlesbrough) as similar to Stoke. A club that was up there for a while and are now playing around their level.

Burnley have been well ran too in recent years, they’re probably a more realistic model for us to follow.

Burnley is a good example. like Boro there is alot of tradition and pride associated with the Club, but it is in a unfashionable and relatively poor area of the UK. We do have a slightly bigger catchment area and get slightly bigger crowds. Our facilities are better both the Riverside and Rockcliffe. In recent years they have being more astute than us and we need to address that. Burnley could only buy big and pay big when they received Premier League money - otherwise they were mid table Championship.

 

[Borokian1876]

Burnley is a good example. like Boro there is alot of tradition and pride associated with the Club, but it is in a unfashionable and relatively poor area of the UK. We do have a slightly bigger catchment area and get slightly bigger crowds. Our facilities are better both the Riverside and Rockcliffe. In recent years they have being more astute than us and we need to address that. Burnley could only buy big and pay big when they received Premier League money - otherwise they were mid table Championship.

We don’t have a “ slightly” bigger catchment are teesside alone county borough is 400,000 that’s bigger than their entire catchment our crowds aren’t “ slightly bigger” we averaged 8,000 more despite them winning the league we are much much bigger than Burnley not slightly we fanbase wise dwarf them, we are slightly smaller than wolves, albeit not by a lot, as a club we’re not on a level playing field with Burnley Norwich Southampton West Brom palace and maybe derby and forest are better comparisons

 

[indeedido]

Burnley is a good example. like Boro there is alot of tradition and pride associated with the Club, but it is in a unfashionable and relatively poor area of the UK. We do have a slightly bigger catchment area and get slightly bigger crowds. Our facilities are better both the Riverside and Rockcliffe. In recent years they have being more astute than us and we need to address that. Burnley could only buy big and pay big when they received Premier League money - otherwise they were mid table Championship.

Come on Red, Burnley have a MUCH smaller catchment area, they draw much smaller crowds.
Burnley have had long periods where they have amazingly out performed their realistic potential.
We never have. And they have hit higher highs.

Our aims should be to be a PL club, but not take it for granted.
To aim for some top half seasons, get occasional top 6-8 seasons, struggle against relegation some seasons.
We will drop out from time to time but should be back up pretty quickly.
The last 15 years has been a bleak spell against that.

Burnley have averaged 20-21k just 7 times in the last 60 seasons and never above it. They've averaged under 12k 20 times.
The only time they've ever averaged above 21k was in the 15 seasons post WW2 where they were most successful.

They've had 7 seasons in Div 4 since we had one of the two we've ever had in the third tier.

They are a remarkable success story in having won the top league twice and been runner up twice, had a 24 year long run in the top flight from 1947, won the FA Cup and lost two other finals.
They are perhaps the very best example of a truly limited potential club so often punching so far above their weight.
We are almost the exact opposite.

 

[Borokian1876]

Come on Red, Burnley have a MUCH smaller catchment area, they draw much smaller crowds.
Burnley have had long periods where they have amazingly out performed their realistic potential.
We never have. And they have hit higher highs.

Our aims should be to be a PL club, but not take it for granted.
To aim for some top half seasons, get occasional top 6-8 seasons, struggle against relegation some seasons.
We will drop out from time to time but should be back up pretty quickly.
The last 15 years has been a bleak spell against that.

Burnley have averaged 20-21k just 7 times in the last 60 seasons and never above it. They've averaged under 12k 20 times.
The only time they've ever averaged above 21k was in the 15 seasons post WW2 where they were most successful.

They've had 7 seasons in Div 4 since we had one of the two we've ever had in the third tier.

They are a remarkable success story in having won the top league twice and been runner up twice, had a 24 year long run in the top flight from 1947, won the FA Cup and lost two other finals.
They are perhaps the very best example of a truly limited potential club so often punching so far above their weight.
We are almost the exact opposite.

This, the small town plucky club narrative amongst teessiders will never drift and it’s pretty sad. As a club we are fairly big and have averaged 30,000 over 16 times across our history, this is more than “ massive giant” notts forest who’s support historically isn’t a patch on ours and derby county who prior to the last 2 decades have awful support, we are probably the biggest least successful club in the country maybe 2nd to Birmingham city but even they’ve won more than us, with the right investment as a club we will cruise past the likes of Burnley which is no dig at them it’s just the way it is

 

[sweet_left_foot]

Give it a rest. Burnley is not exactly Milan either.

Milan is a northern former industrial town

 

[18MFC76]

Far more harmful outlook. We should be happy to plod along? We are a parochial football club who should be happy to exist? What sort of outlook is that? This club, both currently and also historically, can sustain itself in the top flight and that should very much be the aim.

This 100%.

 

[Muttley]

There is a secret to unlocking the path to the Promised Land err Premier League and it is so simple I think that everyone knows what it is in their hearts...

... we just have to "show ambition"

That's it. Just do that and we will return in triumph and sweep all before us.

More seriously I do enjoy people bemoaning that we find ourselves in the league below Luton, Bmuff, Sheff Utd, Burnley etc. whilst ignoring the fact that we are in the same league as Leeds, Southampton, Leicester, Ipswich, Norwich and others all with similar claims to PL status and we are in a league above Derby, Bolton, Wigan and Portsmouth. (I'm sure there are others with just as much claim as us). Also the fixation with attendances is becoming Mackem-esque a few thousand paying mugs, sorry customers oops supporters is neither here nor there.

We have a plan, one that hopefully assures us of avoiding a fate like Derby or Bolton and we need to let it play out. We've played two games and there are numpties whinging like Geordies at a public stoning who only got pebbles instead of clemmies.

Patience my lovelies, patience.

 

[Uwefuchs]

We've spent almost as many seasons in the top flight (in our history) than we have in the second tier, and only 19 clubs have had more seasons in the top flight than us.
Historically we are a bottom half Premier league club/ top half championship club, I think the vast majority of our fans can live with Championship football but expect us to be competing for promotion. That isn't unrealistic or delusional I think its a moderate goal to be honest.

Gibson's run between 1995-2009 had all but one season in the Premier league and I think its fair to say it was the best period in the clubs history and he was undoubtedly the best chairman in the clubs history. However from 2009-2023 we have had one season in the top flight and if we are basing it on league finishes this is arguably the worst spell in the clubs history.

I have seen us be rubbish at Ayresome park to become an established Premier league club with world class players and then back to being an average 2nd tier club, despite being out of the Premier league for a long time I think a lot of neutrals still see us a decent sized club. If we could get things right off the pitch I think we could sustain a spell again in the top flight again, attract decent players here and make a bit of money commercially as well. I've spoken to football fans around the country and abroad and I think we are still seen as a pretty big club based on our Premier league and European exploits in the 90s and 00s, the longer we stay out of the top flight then that reputation will fade but I don't think we need to accept 2nd tier mediocrity yet. Get things right and we could be doing what clubs like Brentford are now.

 

[Borokian1876]

There is a secret to unlocking the path to the Promised Land err Premier League and it is so simple I think that everyone knows what it is in their hearts...

... we just have to "show ambition"

That's it. Just do that and we will return in triumph and sweep all before us.

More seriously I do enjoy people bemoaning that we find ourselves in the league below Luton, Bmuff, Sheff Utd, Burnley etc. whilst ignoring the fact that we are in the same league as Leeds, Southampton, Leicester, Ipswich, Norwich and others all with similar claims to PL status and we are in a league above Derby, Bolton, Wigan and Portsmouth. (I'm sure there are others with just as much claim as us). Also the fixation with attendances is becoming Mackem-esque a few thousand paying mugs, sorry customers oops supporters is neither here nor there.

We have a plan, one that hopefully assures us of avoiding a fate like Derby or Bolton and we need to let it play out. We've played two games and there are numpties whinging like Geordies at a public stoning who only got pebbles instead of clemmies.

Patience my lovelies, patience.

Agree with all bar wigan, traditionally a non league club who lived the dream. They actually have great support for such a small club yet people don’t see this because there grounds 3x too big for them

 

[Muttley]

Agree with all bar wigan, traditionally a non league club who lived the dream.

True, but they won the FA cup in 2012/3 something which we have never done. Perhaps a stretch but the point is that we tend to view our struggles by looking upwards when we need to be aware of where we are by looking downwards too, for perspective.

Every single club in the pyramid is striving to find an advantage a way to claw their way up the ladder or for that brief moment of "Sporting Glory" and a bit of shiny tin for the boardroom and waving scarves from an open-topped bus.

 

[sweet_left_foot]

I had a set of football cards in the mid 70's with significant players and details of the teams they played for on them. David Mills was on the Boro card and it described Boro as a sleeping giant. This is where I formed my opinion. I've not considered changing it.

No idea where the cards came from, they weren't cigarette cards, more popped out of a piece of cardboard because they had serrated edges.

"they have amazingly out performed their realistic potential. We never have." What defines realistic potential?

 

[coluka]

The problem we have is lots of fans who love hope and place enormous trust in the club to get things right. Gibson is still allowed to be dining out on the saviour tag and the running of the club to 2006. Some fans would be ideal recruits for the media department (if they aren’t already). We’ve had 17 years of mainly frustrations since 2006, some fans choose to ignore or excuse the poor management and performance over the majority of those years due to the brownie points in the bank. Every fan is grateful to Gibson and remains so for his continued funding and support, without that we would be lost. However…………………

Everyone talks of understanding the financial state the club is in, the plan we have, the gap between the haves and have nots, the pool we are fishing in etc. All that ignores the fact as to who has led us to this position. We’ve had more cunning plans than Baldrick since 2006 (but largely of similar quality), why the club has to operate as it does is because of years of poor management, poor recruitment, poor decision making and constant flip-flopping in all sorts of areas, while similar clubs like Brighton, Burnley, Fulham, Wolves, Bournemouth, Sheff Utd and the like have out performed us on and arguably off the pitch in a variety of different areas recently. I think fans have been too patient and understanding and accepting of what we are told and too readily excuse things.

Last season I really thought a corner had been turned, we marginally failed, largely due to injuries imho. Credit to Mr Gibson for appointing Carrick and recruitment significantly improved, particularly in the loan market. The Summer talk was about improving, Jones stated Carrick mentioned top 2 was the aim not top 6. The feel good factor was back with a bang, We got a flurry of projects and a new snr keeper, which was a bright start.

Then recruitment stalled and it dawned the massive hole in proven quality and what was needed to replace the gang of 22/23. That hole is still quite wide and the opening games have shown that to be the case. Engels and Latte-Lath are experienced within their respective leagues but we have no clue if they will or maybe can fill some of the void created in such an unforgiving league of higher quality faced. 49 goals lost, 22 assists down, the new boys will fill some of that gap but to me the quality is well down on last season, but we will see over the course of the next few games how we progress and whether the recruitment men can add yet more quality that even the most rose tinted fans must surely admit are needed.

Maddo himself has indicated we don’t have the quality of last season even with the 2 signings this week and can’t expect to be better than last season and he is a club employee more in the know than us fans. The clock is ticking and the window has not yet slam shut. I just don’t want to hear excuses, apologists from the club or fans, I want to see effort and quality to have a realistic stab at promotion, the play offs have to be a minimum, or we will have gone backwards as a club once more.

 

[Borokian1876]

The problem we have is lots of fans who love hope and place enormous trust in the club to get things right. Gibson is still allowed to be dining out on the saviour tag and the running of the club to 2006. Some fans would be ideal recruits for the media department (if they aren’t already). We’ve had 17 years of mainly frustrations since 2006, some fans choose to ignore or excuse the poor management and performance over the majority of those years due to the brownie points in the bank. Every fan is grateful to Gibson and remains so for his continued funding and support, without that we would be lost. However…………………

Everyone talks of understanding the financial state the club is in, the plan we have, the gap between the haves and have nots, the pool we are fishing in etc. All that ignores the fact as to who has led us to this position. We’ve had more cunning plans than Baldrick since 2006 (but largely of similar quality), why the club has to operate as it does is because of years of poor management, poor recruitment, poor decision making and constant flip-flopping in all sorts of areas, while similar clubs like Brighton, Burnley, Fulham, Wolves, Bournemouth, Sheff Utd and the like have out performed us on and arguably off the pitch in a variety of different areas recently. I think fans have been too patient and understanding and accepting of what we are told and too readily excuse things.

Last season I really thought a corner had been turned, we marginally failed, largely due to injuries imho. Credit to Mr Gibson for appointing Carrick and recruitment significantly improved, particularly in the loan market. The Summer talk was about improving, Jones stated Carrick mentioned top 2 was the aim not top 6. The feel good factor was back with a bang, We got a flurry of projects and a new snr keeper, which was a bright start.

Then recruitment stalled and it dawned the massive hole in proven quality and what was needed to replace the gang of 22/23. That hole is still quite wide and the opening games have shown that to be the case. Engels and Latte-Lath are experienced within their respective leagues but we have no clue if they will or maybe can fill some of the void created in such an unforgiving league of higher quality faced. 49 goals lost, 22 assists down, the new boys will fill some of that gap but to me the quality is well down on last season, but we will see over the course of the next few games how we progress and whether the recruitment men can add yet more quality that even the most rose tinted fans must surely admit are needed.

Maddo himself has indicated we don’t have the quality of last season even with the 2 signings this week and can’t expect to be better than last season and he is a club employee more in the know than us fans. The clock is ticking and the window has not yet slam shut. I just don’t want to hear excuses, apologists from the club or fans, I want to see effort and quality to have a realistic stab at promotion, the play offs have to be a minimum, or we will have gone backwards as a club once more.

I really can’t see promotion this season. Sadly

 

[indeedido]

I really can’t see promotion this season. Sadly

Not as things stand with the squad as it is.

 

[NoloBoro]

The squad won’t be as it is, there hopefully will be additions. There will be hard work going on I’m sure. Keep the faith.

 

[jonny_greenings_sock]

Is that they still think we’re a Premier League standard club that has just fallen on hard times and our current standing is just a blip.

We punched well above our weight for years. We’re an unfashionable area with limited resources, which means we’re swimming in a pool with much bigger fish.

That’s why they’re so easily rattled when it looks like, god forbid, we might not smash the league.

We are akin to the likes of Coventry, Stoke, Blackburn etc. We could, with financial mismanagement, just as easily be a Bolton or a Derby.

Be thankful you’ve still got a football club to support and a chairman who consistently backs the club. We’re embarking on a new model, it’s probably not going to result in promotion any time soon unless we’re very lucky. You need to temper your expectations and appreciate that you’ve still got a club to support playing at a reasonable level. There’s a lot out there who haven’t.

Interesting point OP. I think that’s historical underachievement for us. Don’t know exactly where our average league position is now, but it’s somewhere between 16 and 23 in the pyramid. Size of the club, history, gates all put us there. Anything less than that is not good enough for me. It’s lower than we should be and on average, have always been.

Aware that the financial landscape has changed but we’re bigger, more recently successful, and more successful historically than at least 5 Premier League clubs.

I think the problem with our fans is that we don’t appreciate the good times. 25k at the Basel home game, non-stop whinging about McClaren and Karanka. There’s a trait in our fans where they’d rather focus on the negative and feel like they’re proved right when things inevitably go wrong, than be embarrassed for being optimistic, which I hate to say it is a very Teesside trait.

 

[equaliser]

There is a strain of entitlement among many of our fans; you saw it towards the end of last season with many assuming the likes of Luton and Coventry were just there to make up the numbers, when it was clear we'd gone off the boil.

But I think we're all suffering from those raised expectations for the fact is, the final whistle of the play off 2nd leg was a devastating moment. The gap between success and failure is so narrow, the potential rewards so huge, and so much luck is at play. It was also apparent that much of our thrilling football in the second half of the season was down to players who wouldn't be returning. The players must feel that loss also and their confidence must be brittle, especially after the start we've had.

Tbh, I thought the thread was going to be about Boro fans' alleged 'fickle' nature and this is the trait in home games that most concerns me as no doubt Warnock's team talk will be to "get the crowd on their backs". We have to give Carrick time to instill confidence in his young charges. Yes, on paper, you could say we're weaker and yes, with established, well-supported 'big clubs' arriving from both directions, the league is probably harder. However, we and other like Luton showed last year that it's possible to put runs together and a strong team spirit can take you a long way.

For myself, it's my 51st season as a Boro supporter and I've long learned to live with disappointment. Last season under Carrick was a delightful surprise. His whole ethos is built on trusting the players to express themselves without fear, but that's hard if you have fans who hysterically barrack them for the slightest error. I wouldn't usually class myself as a ra-ra, but I buy into the vibe Carrick has brought. Ultimately, I want to feel to feel good about my club. We could be where Brentford/Brighton are, we could be where Derby/Bolton are. We have no divine right to be anywhere and discussions of how 'big' we are as a a club are just so so tiresome. Who the F**K cares?

A win, a couple of goals, today, and things will look different. But even if things don't go our way, I'm giving the boy Carrick my backing. Players take time to settle and let's see where we are in a couple of months.

 

[xxlshirts_fit_all]

Our aim isn’t to finish 7th or to fail in a play off… what ever league you’re in the sun is to do the best you can..

We’re a yo-yo club but with a bit of luck we could put a premier league run together…

It wouldn’t be pretty in the top flight and that’s where the over expectation lies, we should aim to get there but without big club investment from the owner or fans we should not be too unhappy if we come back down… in fact we should use the time to consolidate finances…

 

[BiggEggo]

Realistically our fit is between a bottom half Prem or top half Championship club.

Just be nice to experience some Prem football again - for a bit.