The end?

TeaCider said:
It's the only thing that somebody can take from what you keep suggesting.

Russia is not going to end the invasion willingly, and it's certainly not going to withdraw from areas it occupies without being forced out.
"Giving peace a chance" amounts to Russia illegally gaining territory after causing the deaths of tens to hundreds of thousands.

They spent months trying to diplomatically prevent Russia invading. Putin ignored all attempts and started the invasion anyway.

Ensuring Ukraine has the capacity to defend itself is the only way to end the war without Russia stealing territory.

Without Western military aid, Ukraine would have lost more territory than it already has, and thankfully they're slowly pushing the Russians out of many areas they'd already taken because of the constant flow of aid, intelligence, support and weaponry.
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I diagree completely with you, under the present ‘tactics’ the war will simply continue indefinitely and more innocent people (ie not the politicians) will get killed and the nuclear threat will increase until it becomes expected.

Don‘t underestimate the tools at the disposal of world governments in terms of advisers, think tanks and resources to find solutions to these problems. There will be a way to curtail this war and allow the (Ukraine) Slavs to live alongside the (Russian) Slavs in peace, it just depends who wants to exercise the solutions.

Armed combat should be consigned to the dustbin of history where it belongs, it’s not about standing up to bullies, appeasement or his dxck being bigger than your dxck, it’s about death, destruction and waste of the civilian population whilst the politicians hide in their castles.
 
Smoggle said:
Also, if the west just stopped all support for Ukraine tomorrow and started pushing for diplomacy, would the Ukrainians accept that and stop fighting? Very unlikely. If Russia had steamrollered through would Ukrainians have just given up? Again, unlikely, but there would be dozens more Buchas to be discovered in 20 years time.

Diplomacy didn’t work before or during this conflict, sanctions are not stopping Russia now nor are rebukes from allies, but the well armed and motivated Ukrainian military are.

I don’t see any other feasible option and certainly not any the Ukrainians (who let’s face it are the ones who should decide their future) would accept. If anyone has alternatives then I’m genuinely interested.
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May as well move straight to the nukes and miss out the rest?
 
HolgateCorner said:
I diagree completely with you, under the present ‘tactics’ the war will simply continue indefinitely and more innocent people (ie not the politicians) will get killed and the nuclear threat will increase until it becomes expected.

Don‘t underestimate the tools at the disposal of world governments in terms of advisers, think tanks and resources to find solutions to these problems. There will be a way to curtail this war and allow the (Ukraine) Slavs to live alongside the (Russian) Slavs in peace, it just depends who wants to exercise the solutions.

Armed combat should be consigned to the dustbin of history where it belongs, it’s not about standing up to bullies, appeasement or his dxck being bigger than your dxck, it’s about death, destruction and waste of the civilian population whilst the politicians hide in their castles.
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If there was a way that didn't involve Russia annexing Ukrainian territory, it would have been done already.

What way do you suggest ends the war without Russia achieving some of its aims and legitimising its invasion?

What pacifist way do you suggest Ukraine should have taken in the face of a hostile invasion that wouldn't have seen it lose land and sovereignty?

There isn't one.

Russia started the war, not the West and certainly not Ukraine.
 
HolgateCorner said:
May as well move straight to the nukes and miss out the rest?
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No one is advocating that and you know it.

I’d genuinely like to hear your solutions because so far you’ve told us what a terrible situation it is (true) and that nukes could be deployed (true), but little in the way of feasible possibilities to end the war.

Remember, any solutions that involve:
A. Ukraine giving up territory will likely be rejected by Ukrainians; and
B. Russia giving up occupied territory will be rejected by Russia.

If a solution to end the war with Ukrainian territorial concessions was agreed, we’d be back down this path again very soon.

Considering one of Russia’s closest allies and more powerful neighbour, China, has been ignored after cautioning Putin, I think your vague suggestion of “advisors, think tanks and resources” would likely be ignored by Putin too. Unless you wish to be more specific?
 
Smoggle said:
If a solution to end the war with Ukrainian territorial concessions was agreed, we’d be back down this path again very soon.
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and that's the key. If anyone offers a a diplomatic agreement with russia where new lines are drawn on a map, and you expect them to not try again in 5 years then you haven't been paying attention for the last decade. The only way to stop this happening again is to defeat the russian army and expel them from ukraine. The Afghans did it in the 70s with AK47s and mountains, it'll happen again here. I really, really doubt that Putin will use tactical nukes, because a) NATO will destroy his armed forces, and probably more importantly as a bargaining tool b) his government colleagues and citizens know there is simply no way back on the international stage for Russia for the next 30-50 years if they did it.
 
TeaCider said:
If there was a way that didn't involve Russia annexing Ukrainian territory, it would have been done already.

What way do you suggest ends the war without Russia achieving some of its aims and legitimising its invasion?

What pacifist way do you suggest Ukraine should have taken in the face of a hostile invasion that wouldn't have seen it lose land and sovereignty?

There isn't one.

Russia started the war, not the West and certainly not Ukraine.
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Yeah you are right Tea Cider, let the slaughter continue indefinitely.
 
Smoggle said:
No one is advocating that and you know it.

I’d genuinely like to hear your solutions because so far you’ve told us what a terrible situation it is (true) and that nukes could be deployed (true), but little in the way of feasible possibilities to end the war.

Remember, any solutions that involve:
A. Ukraine giving up territory will likely be rejected by Ukrainians; and
B. Russia giving up occupied territory will be rejected by Russia.

If a solution to end the war with Ukrainian territorial concessions was agreed, we’d be back down this path again very soon.

Considering one of Russia’s closest allies and more powerful neighbour, China, has been ignored after cautioning Putin, I think your vague suggestion of “advisors, think tanks and resources” would likely be ignored by Putin too. Unless you wish to be more specific?
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Nobody really knows the true diplomatic situation and if you believe our media then you need your head looking at.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I diagree completely with you, under the present ‘tactics’ the war will simply continue indefinitely and more innocent people (ie not the politicians) will get killed and the nuclear threat will increase until it becomes expected.

Don‘t underestimate the tools at the disposal of world governments in terms of advisers, think tanks and resources to find solutions to these problems. There will be a way to curtail this war and allow the (Ukraine) Slavs to live alongside the (Russian) Slavs in peace, it just depends who wants to exercise the solutions.

Armed combat should be consigned to the dustbin of history where it belongs, it’s not about standing up to bullies, appeasement or his dxck being bigger than your dxck, it’s about death, destruction and waste of the civilian population whilst the politicians hide in their castles.
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Armed combat may be a thing of the past to western countries , but the east doesn’t see it that way.

Taking a pacifist route will embolden the likes of Russia and China to push further . If we just tried diplomacy with Russia and left Ukraine , China is much more likely to make a move on Taiwan.

I did hear an old saying “to live in peace you must be prepared for war” . If you don’t stomp on the b***ds early, all it leads to is further war down the line . Ww2 may never have happened to the extent it did if hitler was crushed early . Diplomacy doesn’t work with evil dictators . We managed to sign a pact with hitler promised not to invade territory further , yet it was broke. Putin has broke pacts and treaties too
 
This won’t be popular with the war mongers on this thread but I don’t think anything will stop whilst Zelensky is in position.
 
Boroboyyo said:
Democratically elected zelensky . What’s your proposal ? Force the Ukrainians to have an autocratic Russian puppet ?
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No but I think the main promoters of this argument are Putin and Zelensky.

Putin is a nutter (despite Boromarts protestations) who conned the western governments (not difficult I know) and Zelensky called his bluff on a number of fronts with NATO and the EU with the result the Ukraine Slavs have paid a truly terrible price. Hopefully the rest of us won’t pay with a nuclear war at some point.

What you now have is similar to England and Scotland being at war with one side being fed missiles by, say, USA and the other being supplied by, say, China.

Early in the war there was footage of a very old Ukrainian man in a bombed out village saying look at the state of the place and all due to an argument between two men, and for what at the end of the day?

The Slavs on both sides know where the problem lies. The western governments need to work hard on removing both men, harder than they have been to date.
 
TeaCider said:
So that's a no then.

You have no suggestions for ending the war without violence that doesn't end up emboldening Russia and rewarding them for an unjustified war of conquest and the displacement of millions.
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Keep loading your rifle, you know it makes sense.
 
HolgateCorner said:
With respect I think there is more to it than that.

This is Slav v Slav don’t forget, they are one and the same.
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You realise you are just spouting nonsense don't you?

Until you can come up with a suggestion as to give Ukraine peace then simply making trite statements like
HolgateCorner said:
Keep loading your rifle, you know it makes sense.
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Make you look silly.

I have not seen a single "warmonger" on here. I wish the war had not happened but it has and it isn't going to stop until both sides can agree. And one of those sides will not stop until it has annexed/stolen a large chunk of the other. I don't know what you've got against Zelensky but this war was started by Putin.

Oh and saying
HolgateCorner said:
This is Slav v Slav don’t forget, they are one and the same.
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sounds very racist.
 
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