Student loans

Andy_W said:
Maybe they're just looking at it like it's a fair investment, and that getting something back is better than nothing? Basically, an accepted money pit, as they get the cash back from other areas like tax or whatever?

The only way to get more of that back is to hammer the students, but doing it to the ones earning 24k seems a bit harsh, especially nowadays when they're being screwed by the property ladder.

You could have examples where someone earning 24k has had their fee capped at 9k from Teesside uni, yet someone could be doing economics from one of the big three and likely to clear >50k for the majority of their career, and they also get their fee capped at 9k. That doesn't seem fair, they're both paying the same, but not getting the same back, nowhere near.

It's even less fair on some trady, who never used the system though, but who now earns good money and shells out loads of tax, but they had to lump out 30k on tools and work their nuts off for apprentice wages though, who took 10 years to get 30k, and likely who physically won't be able to work past 60.

The student system should largely fund itself I think, it's a bit unfair that those who never used it, to have to cop out for it, but they probably get it back elsewhere on average as the students may drive the economy and be the customers for the tradies.

I wonder how much of that 160bn went on failed multiple-year courses, or courses that had next to zero job prospects? I suppose that's where they could do a lot of the trimming, as in stop the problem before it becomes a problem.
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I wonder how many potential student nurses and doctors were put off applying for degree courses .....which NHS salaries wont pay for.............leaving qualified practitioners up to their necks in debt?
 
I think it all depends in the degree we should categorise medical degrees, engineering, teaching, science and technology as free as there's real value and a shortage of skills. If you want to graduate in media studies, fine arts business studies, bachelor of arts basically then tough **** I think you should have to pay something.

Even amongst for the rotten torries getting rid of nursing bursaries has to be one if not the most shortsighted, mean policy decisions ever.
 
r00fie1 said:
I wonder how many potential student nurses and doctors were put off applying for degree courses .....which NHS salaries wont pay for.............leaving qualified practitioners up to their necks in debt?
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Yeah, exactly, that's certainly one sector that should be free education, possibly contingent on working in the sector for at least 5 years. They get hammered on pay (even the doctors), and then get further hammered on hours. 20-30k is a disgrace for nurses doing 50+ hours a week, especially with the debt to do it, the risk (like pandemics and treating absolute animals) and also the responsibility.

They're so in demand for nurses and doctors, have been for ages, and with this brexit crap everyone knew they would lose loads more of them, and struggle to recruit also, this should have just always been kept FOC. Terrible forward-thinking by the Tories, as always. Well, terrible forward-thinking for the public and those worse off, not themselves of course, with private healthcare and personal interests invested in private healthcare etc.
 
Andy_W said:
Yeah, exactly, that's certainly one sector that should be free education, possibly contingent on working in the sector for at least 5 years. They get hammered on pay (even the doctors), and then get further hammered on hours. 20-30k is a disgrace for nurses doing 50+ hours a week, especially with the debt to do it, the risk (like pandemics and treating absolute animals) and also the responsibility.

They're so in demand for nurses and doctors, have been for ages, and with this brexit crap everyone knew they would lose loads more of them, and struggle to recruit also, this should have just always been kept FOC. Terrible forward-thinking by the Tories, as always. Well, terrible forward-thinking for the public and those worse off, not themselves of course, with private healthcare and personal interests invested in private healthcare etc.
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Junior doctors start on 23k a year. It's a disgrace.

On the subject of loans I looked just last week at taking a loan for a second degree when I retire, but I can't!
 
Aet290204 said:
Do you know anyone who graduates from University and subsequently never, for the entire duration of their working life, goes into a job that pays more than £23k pa?

No, me neither. And if they don’t then they probably shouldn’t have gone to university in the first place
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My son is in his thirties now and would guess he is below or just around that threshold. Probably never earned above that. Went to Uni to do journalism and then the @rse fell out of that market so he took work where he could starting on zero hour contracts. So why do you think he shouldn't have gone to University. Not everyone falls into big earning jobs.
 
Laughing said:
Junior doctors start on 23k a year. It's a disgrace.

On the subject of loans I looked just last week at taking a loan for a second degree when I retire, but I can't!
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23k for a doctor is a disgrace.

I can understand them not giving loans out for degrees which will have assumed little use for someone retired. The loan may never be repaid and the subsidy the uni/ government are putting in could go to better use I expect, surely you must see that?
 
Aet290204 said:
Do you know anyone who graduates from University and subsequently never, for the entire duration of their working life, goes into a job that pays more than £23k pa?

No, me neither. And if they don’t then they probably shouldn’t have gone to university in the first place
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I do as do most of my peers. But the value of a degree is much diminished. For a lot an academic career is just not suitable. There are many hugely successful careers in traditional trades to be had
 
Andy_W said:
23k for a doctor is a disgrace.

I can understand them not giving loans out for degrees which will have assumed little use for someone retired. The loan may never be repaid and the subsidy the uni/ government are putting in could go to better use I expect, surely you must see that?
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That was the 2015 figure. It's £28,423 for year 1 foundation year going up to £32,691 for year 2.

A dentist, vet, life scientist would be £30-35k.
 
Aet290204 said:
Do you know anyone who graduates from University and subsequently never, for the entire duration of their working life, goes into a job that pays more than £23k pa?

No, me neither. And if they don’t then they probably shouldn’t have gone to university in the first place
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I know quite a few.

A lot of women working in shops and hospitality etc as they couldn't get much else after the last recession and then lost touch with their qualification or their area of knowledge was failing or in decline. Also, quite a lot of them don't get to 23k before they have kids and then end up reduced hours, part-time or whatever. Loads might reach 25-30k for a couple of years and then drift back down to <20k and would never go above it again (except for inflation, so it doesn't really count).

The choice for loads is either fork out a fortune for childcare (which is kind of pointless, in our system, if you're never going to earn a lot) or look after the kids/ be available before/ after school and take an earnings hit which would put you well below the threshold.

Loads of people are unsure what they want to do, which is understandable at 16 or 18, and next to none know when they would be able to get a house or family etc, so I wouldn't begrudge anyone going to uni or getting a better education. My main issues are loads of people doing funded courses that have extremely low employment, demand, or earnings prospects, which is probably a waste. Then on the other end of the spectrum those who do use it and make an absolute fortune from it, which is sort of abuse, and then those who don't ever use it, but still fund it.
 
bear66 said:
That was the 2015 figure. It's £28,423 for year 1 foundation year going up to £32,691 for year 2.

A dentist, vet, life scientist would be £30-35k.
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The thing is, that 28k now is probably way less than 23k was "worth" in 2015, loads will not realise this though.

That's one of the things I don't get, this earning cap figure should have gone up with inflation/ expenses/ hosing/ rent costs, like how nurses/ doctors wages didn't. A 2% yearly rise against 4% inflation is a pay cut in real terms, again people don't realise it.

This earnign cap going the complete opposite way to inflation is even worse, it's a kick in the nuts for those worse off students, who creep over the cap, but likely never have high earning prospects taking them much above it.

Funny as the Tories who put this through, along with the core of their voters had cheaper housing, rapidly increasing value of their housing, free education, and an education level way above the level of the majority of the rest of the world etc. Loads of them would have had loaded parents too, so they wouldn't have even needed a loan had it been necessary back then.
 
bear66 said:
That was the 2015 figure. It's £28,423 for year 1 foundation year going up to £32,691 for year 2.

A dentist, vet, life scientist would be £30-35k.
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I looked that up today bear is that really the case? 28 grand it's still a disgrace. They ain't highly skilled but they are highly educated.

I started on 21 grand as a graduate 25 years ago.
 
I would urge young people to get to uni but make sure you are on a course where your skills/education are needed.
My son did a masters in maths and statistics. He was persued by companies who wanted him to work for them.
He asked me about the salary he was offered and if I thought it was fair.
His starting salary would be £20,000 a year more than I was earning as a senior nurse in psychiatry 😲.
Then he gets a yearly bonus
and shares.
Well worth the 4 years at uni and paying back his loan. Plus he had a great time and partied a lot.
 
HundredRoom said:
theres a spread of course but it doesnt take long for the big bucks to come in
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Which misses the point of the thread though. You have done what a lot of posters do and taken one party of bears comment out of context then amended to suit your narrative.

Education should be free. There isn't a single argument to charge for it, not one, unless you are a tory and want to maintain the status quo and not see poorer people benefit from higher education.
 
Laughing said:
Education should be free. There isn't a single argument to charge for it, not one, unless you are a tory and want to maintain the status quo and not see poorer people benefit from higher education.
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Well I was lucky enough back in the 70s to receive a full student grant of 2200 and no tuition fees. So it was effectively free. Under Thatcher and Callaghan. And which political party brought in fees. ?
 
HundredRoom said:
Well I was lucky enough back in the 70s to receive a full student grant of 2200 and no tuition fees. So it was effectively free. Under Thatcher and Callaghan. And which political party brought in fees. ?
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It wasn't free it was paid for by taxation. The argument is not whether it should be free because teachers have to be paid for educating. The argument is who pays? In my warped view of the world everything has to be paid for. somewhere somehow
 
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