InglebyUTB
Well-known member
Well that’s just not true.
Rachel Reeves for example is to the right of Rishi Sunak economically.
Starmer reneges on nationalisation plans
- Thread starter dorivasmiddlefinger
- Start date
Rachel Reeves for example is to the right of Rishi Sunak economically.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
I have no idea why people think that Starmer's Labour would just be Johnson's Tories 2.0.
I have no idea why people think Starmer doesn't want to improve people's lives or the country.
I get that Starmer isn't left enough for you and a few people on here but as I said earlier, he's going nowhere, so it's him or the Tories. If you are unhappy with the Tories you gotta give the guy a chance.
Zoophonic
Well-known member
And on that bombshell I'm out....
Andy_W
Well-known member
There's been a pandemic, a war and a whole world of economic problems since then (all of which are still ongoing), and there's not been a GE or manifesto released in that time, I'd expect almost everything to change, as it's all out of date.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
Ooooo you can't change from the 10 pledges! That makes him untrustworthy and worse than Johnson!
You can't reason with these people Andy. Thankfully they are in the minority.
Again. Where was this attitude when it was Corbyn. There was no support for him. His own party tried to oust him repeatedly and constantly undermined him in public. If he had been given the backing that you expect of Starmer then we might have had a government that can help people.
We're in a position now where Tories are so unelectable that any Labour government could beat them. There is the chance to win and not have to pander to the Tory voters but to actually deliver something that Labour voters want.
The whole point of politics is to let people know what you stand for and then convince them why that is the best option. Changing your own principles and ideology to win a few swing voters is removing choice from the electorate.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
Corbyn was unelectable.
Andy_W
Well-known member
You can't improve any lives with 200 seats, but you can let the guys on the other side destroy loads, like they have been doing for 12 years.
It's not just Starmer, his MP's are going to have to back him up, to get things through, so they will all likely need to be on similar pages, and I don't expect them to be doing what the Tories are 3,5,10, 12 years in etc. If the MP's don't think their policies reflect their constituents, then I would hope they would abstain or vote against them.
I'm no expert on US politics but Biden's been in power for a year and a half, which has had a pandemic and a war, I'd say it would be fair to give him a bit more time. Also they don't seem to be able to do anything over there as any changes seem to have to go through various levels of crap, and most of it gets blocked?
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Ooooo you can't change from the 10 pledges! That makes him untrustworthy and worse than Johnson!
You can't reason with these people Andy. Thankfully they are in the minority.
Tell me which of these pledges are out of date or affected by the pandemic and we'll keep the rest then.
Starmer reneges on nationalisation plans
Nationalising energy is the easiest thing in the world to start because the energy companies don't currently do anything in the part that we pay for. They buy energy wholesale and then sell it to us. All you have to do is set up a public company doing the same thing but at a discount. Power...
fmttmboro.com
Andy_W
Well-known member
JC had core labour support, he just had little of the centre and had zero chance of pulling anyone over from the right. His big chance was in 2017, but he lost that chance and then lost a load of brexiters as they had zero confidence he would go through with it. SNP did a hoover job in Scotland too.
It's not us lot JC needed to sway, it's those on the fence who ticked the blue box, unfortunately there's loads of em, and we need some of them.
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
Look at her stances on corporation tax, her voting record, her stances on several issue, she previously boasted how she’d be tougher than the Tories on welfare claimants and force them to take jobs.
She’s right wing nasty piece of work, it’s laughable that Labour would put her in charge of the nations finances when her parliamentary credit card was cancelled as it was 4k in the red.
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
The Labour right teamed up with the Tories and the media to ensure that statement was true.
InglebyUTB
Well-known member
There’s a whole host of things Biden could do via executive orders with a stroke of a pen, but he refuses to do it.
He needs to take on the senators in the party that block his agenda, but he refuses to do it.
The irony is that Dems control all three branches of government and might as well not be in power, as they just don’t have the desire to fight for their positions because their politicians are bought and paid for by special interests to do nothing that threatens power and money.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Most of them, the economy amongst many other things has been killed in about 10 ways, most policies fall behind that.Tell me which of these pledges are out of date or affected by the pandemic and we'll keep the rest then.
Starmer reneges on nationalisation plans
Nationalising energy is the easiest thing in the world to start because the energy companies don't currently do anything in the part that we pay for. They buy energy wholesale and then sell it to us. All you have to do is set up a public company doing the same thing but at a discount. Power...
I expect some similar pledges, and some will be watered down, and all of them will be way better than the Tory equivalent (or opposite).
Sticking to 10 pledges made in 2019 would be absolute madness, and to not think the world has changed since then is crazy, it just needs a new list, and we'll get one. Whinge at it in 2024 and then I'll post the Tory pledges, and you can go and vote for them if they're the same?
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Corbyn always said he would recognise the Brexit result and the EU were very welcoming of his plans:
It was Starmer who - without permission - bounced the party into a 2nd referendum stance and spooked the red wall.
There was a vote in 2019 to include a Customs Union into May's agreement. It lost by three votes only. Those who voted against?
Eleven TIG party members (seven ex Labour) and five Lib Dems including Ed Davey.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Yeah, you clearly know more about that than me.
I'd still be willing to give him more time mind (we have to I suppose), his last two years will be more of a difference I expect and then hopefully they can retain power with someone a bit more in touch.
It'll be easier for him once their economy picks back up and the S&P is back where it was
USA is a messed up place mind, the guns thing is one example of that. To anyone outside it's the easiest problem to fix, yet nobody will seemingly even try.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
Most? Which ones would you keep?
1. Economic justice
Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles.2. Social justice
Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.3. Climate justice
Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights.4. Promote peace and human rights
No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.5. Common ownership
Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.6. Defend migrants’ rights
Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions
Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity
Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.9. Equality
Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade.10. Effective opposition to the Tories
Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.
Andy_W
Well-known member
When I meant core support, I suppose I was more on about traditional labour voters, not MP's.
What was the Brexit position of those MP's, and their constituencies? I can understand some not wanting CU if they were in massive brexit seats, and not thinking CU was enough if they were Pro EU or in pro-eu seats (albeit should have still voted for it). Either way May's deal wasn't getting through.
I didn't even know what Corbyn's stance on Brexit was for most of the time he was Leader, but knew he wasn't exactly pro EU. Didn't he whip against an amendment to keep them in the SM and CU in 2018, and back then was neither for or against a second referendum? This is too on the fence, he should have picked a side and had time to run with that, either way would have probably lost mind.
In mid 2019 I think he was for a vote on the deal, which I agree with, maybe little to late though, we should have had the vote of the core of that deal in 2016.
Like I say, I'm not against JC (and voted for him both times), I just didn't think he would win either time, and he was certainly a better option than the Tories, but he didn't convince enough of the middle to win, or enough of the brexiters. We just need the JC supporters to return the favour now, and then they can complain in 3 years time about what they're doing/ not doing, when they're in power (and we've got rid of the worst bunch of Tories I've seen).
BoroFur
Well-known member
See you needn't have worried. They all turned up, eventually.
Andy_W
Well-known member
I'd like them to keep all 10, in normal times, but it's not normal, and that won't win an election, not now.
They're doing no 10, hence the polls.
Keep 1, 2, 9
Pains me to say it but they maybe slightly water down 3, 4, 6 temporarily, if they're losing votes (albeit I fully expect whatever labour do in these areas to be way better than the Tories)
Be careful with 7 and 8, undecided on these for now, so wouldn't be sticking them as policy for next two years, they could cause a problem with returning to growth (as above I fully expect whatever labour do in these areas to be way better than the Tories)
Bin off 5 (unless it's a massive vote winner and money spinner, I doubt it wins many centre votes and it won't make any money in labours term)
I'd just scrap the list, and have a new list which is more realistic or appropriate for the times. More than happy to discuss that one when it comes out, I'll likely support all of it.
I'd say there are other things which need to be a higher priority too, like tackling inflation, growth sorted out, NHS waiting lists, ambulance wait times and A&E times reducing etc. There's probably a load of other things too, but they came to mind first.
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