Rise of the Nazis

Expat Smoggie said:
Democrats have tried to overthrow Trump several times during his tenure through political rhetoric and imposing their own fascist-style tactics through the CIA and the FBI (Russian collusion and the stupidity of the impeachment process) all failed. Asking god (which one?) for divine intervention might work lol.
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Trump did collude with Russia, the investigations bear that out. That they were unable to remove him from office is precisely one of the indicators that their democracy is under threat.
 
Lefty said:
Trump did collude with Russia, the investigations bear that out. That they were unable to remove him from office is precisely one of the indicators that their democracy is under threat.
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Trump didn't collude with Russia. The only evidence of Russian involvement is with the Democrats.
 
Growing inequalities and resentment of others is a breeding ground for more extreme politics. When all your savings are wiped out by massive inflation or the Wall Street crash or you lose your job and can't get another one you want someone to blame.

Stopping the rise in inequality is ultimately better for 99% of society, but many people have forgotten the lessons of the 1930s. Our grand parents typically suffered the pain of the 1930s and WW2, but we didn't so we have slowly forgotten what the results of a divided society is. And there is such a thing as society Mrs T, it used to be called your country when people in power wanted you to risk/give your life to preserve it.
 
And people learning the lessons of the past - times they never lived through is the issue. It’s not that people have short memories they have no memories at all and it allows holocaust deniers and their ilk an opportunity to put out their propaganda.
 
Agree - I should have said "we" as a country - people (in countries like the UK) born in the late 1940s onwards haven't witnessed mass death horrors and hunger etc.

My mother rung me up very distressed a few days ago she had had a flashback to South Bank in 1942, when she saw the bodies of two baby twin girls that had died in a German bombing raid, on her way to her infants school.
 
We’re sleep walking towards a totalitarian state - these wánkers are slowing going to take away all our rights until we are actually in a dictatorship


🐔
 
Mr Holgate said:
Trump didn't collude with Russia. The only evidence of Russian involvement is with the Democrats.
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And this is the problem; in a post-truth era the facts often seem irrelevant to many people, they'll filter out anything that doest fit their agenda.
Churchill was right when he said that 5 minutes spent with an average voter is the greatest arguement against a democracy. Politics, more than ever before in history, has been dumbed-down to rock bottom
 
Mr Holgate said:
Trump didn't collude with Russia. The only evidence of Russian involvement is with the Democrats.
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Yes he did.

Mueller pointedly refused to clear Trump, but he did strongly indicate he was guilty of obstructing justice. His investigation was not only hampered by that but by the limits imposed by the DOJ.

The Bipartisan GOP led Senate intelligence report, recently released, confirmed Russia interfered in the 2016 election and the Trump campaign had extensive meetings with Russian agents and wiki leaks.

Trump may well still be indicted once out of office.
 
To clarify my original point...

I'm aware there are multiple threads through history, Nazism is an (albeit extreme) but recent and, in my opinion, relevant example (where the machinations of state and economic/societal backdrops are not wholly dissimilar to those in place in the UK today).

My point only centred on domestic policy and the progressive stripping of citizen's rights and subjugation to the "state". I don't think we're heading into World War 3 or the annexation of neighbouring countries but I do think the dual axis of state and media are sowing division which if unchecked, could enable legislation which demonises certain groups in society.
 
Lefty said:
I think you are ‘simplifying’ the position of those you are disagreeing with. It’s a straw man to compare the 1945 Nazi regime with the way the early 1930’s Nazi Party was viewed by not just the German people and institutions but many in this country. In any case no one is saying things are identical.
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This is not what I'm saying.
 
The Nazis had very little support in 1929 but by 1931 it was around 33%. When people felt OK about life, they wanted nothing to do with such a party. The KPD (communist party) also increased their vote significantly in 1931 as anger rose. Germans felt they were blamed almost completely for WW1 and were been asked to pay for it. The lost quite large bits of their country such as the Rhineland (equivalent of losing Kent and Sussex for the UK) as well as all their overseas colonies (most given to the UK). As we know once they got power, only one voice was heard and it was everywhere. They misused patriotism horribly and they were desperate to find bogeymen to blame for their perceived problems (Jews, Capitalists, Communists, People who didn't fit in, Slavs). If a lot of people resisted in Germany, the Nazis often quickly backed down, which might surprise some people. Their ideal was a German small farmer who worked his own small farm and his family had for over a 1000 years. A person who made a living through hard physical toil. The bedrock of their support came from small town Germany and areas threatened by another country like East Prussia. Lots of opportunists jumped on the bad wagon in 1933, then silently mingled in with everyone else in May 1945 and lived a life of silence about life before 1945.

Some elements of the Nazis can be seen with Trump - over the top Nationalism (how many flags does he have in the background when he talks) demonising other groups very readily (such as immigrants and even Afro-Americans). He seems to deliberately want to make people feel insecure, so he can say he can sort out their concerns which is a tool taken from the Nazis. George Orwell identified in his book 1984, how dictators love creating enemies, people for others to hate. Myself I still think Trump is quite a way off Hitler. Trump is not nearly as militaristic as Hitler. If anything Trump has pulled the USA out of military fights. There is quite a bit of playing to the audience with Trump to get a vote. A deep racism in some parts of the USA has been a major issue since its inception.
 
Redwurzel said:
The Nazis had very little support in 1929 but by 1931 it was around 33%. When people felt OK about life, they wanted nothing to do with such a party. The KPD (communist party) also increased their vote significantly in 1931 as anger rose. Germans felt they were blamed almost completely for WW1 and were been asked to pay for it. The lost quite large bits of their country such as the Rhineland (equivalent of losing Kent and Sussex for the UK) as well as all their overseas colonies (most given to the UK). As we know once they got power, only one voice was heard and it was everywhere. They misused patriotism horribly and they were desperate to find bogeymen to blame for their perceived problems (Jews, Capitalists, Communists, People who didn't fit in, Slavs). If a lot of people resisted in Germany, the Nazis often quickly backed down, which might surprise some people. Their ideal was a German small farmer who worked his own small farm and his family had for over a 1000 years. A person who made a living through hard physical toil. The bedrock of their support came from small town Germany and areas threatened by another country like East Prussia. Lots of opportunists jumped on the bad wagon in 1933, then silently mingled in with everyone else in May 1945 and lived a life of silence about life before 1945.

Some elements of the Nazis can be seen with Trump - over the top Nationalism (how many flags does he have in the background when he talks) demonising other groups very readily (such as immigrants and even Afro-Americans). He seems to deliberately want to make people feel insecure, so he can say he can sort out their concerns which is a tool taken from the Nazis. George Orwell identified in his book 1984, how dictators love creating enemies, people for others to hate. Myself I still think Trump is quite a way off Hitler. Trump is not nearly as militaristic as Hitler. If anything Trump has pulled the USA out of military fights. There is quite a bit of playing to the audience with Trump to get a vote. A deep racism in some parts of the USA has been a major issue since its inception.
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Good post.

it seems an obvious but pertinent point to add that the reason Trump could never be compared to the actions of Nazi Germany is that he doesn’t control the media and shutdown all but propaganda outlets.
 
I wasn't expecting this many replies when I half drunkenly posted the thread the other night whilst watching the program itself! Some good debate!
 
Jostler said:
I wasn't expecting this many replies when I half drunkenly posted the thread the other night whilst watching the program itself! Some good debate!
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The drama series about Hitler a few months back gave an interesting insight into the 'fortuitous' way that Hitler was put into power for reasons that backfired.
 
Many people are understandably and rightly concerned with everything that is going on, but this is not at all like the 1920s and 30s. Trying to learn lessons from that period is nugatory because the world is different.
 
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