Renewables

The best thing we could do right now is what the "crusties" blocking the M25 were saying...

INSULATE BRITAIN

Reduce the energy use not the cost of it. so many houses are still single glazed and have inadequately insulated lofts. Then go further add insulation as cavity wall or exterior cladding these actions will make a permanent and effective contribution to reducing our energy needs and therefore the cost to us all not least in carbon use. Of course the people selling us the energy and the politicians sponsored by these companies don't want us to do this, why would they...
 
thewanderer said:
That's not what happens tho. You get a mix of wherever is generating at that particular time. Also generators and suppliers are not the same companies in most cases.
Click to expand...
Aye I know, but that seems to be the premise in which it's sold under, which is wrong.

If they're advertising that, they should have to buy a volume of it from the provider, ensure delivery to the provider and pay the grid/ DNO to distribute it.

The way it is, when it's windy, the people buying from "normal" providers should get a reduced rate, to reflect the reduced cost, but again that doesn't happen either.
 
Muttley said:
The best thing we could do right now is what the "crusties" blocking the M25 were saying...

INSULATE BRITAIN

Reduce the energy use not the cost of it. so many houses are still single glazed and have inadequately insulated lofts. Then go further add insulation as cavity wall or exterior cladding these actions will make a permanent and effective contribution to reducing our energy needs and therefore the cost to us all not least in carbon use. Of course the people selling us the energy and the politicians sponsored by these companies don't want us to do this, why would they...
Click to expand...
Yup exactly, they should be doing this too and prioritise whichever is most cost effective. Same goes for banning crappy lights, and only allowing LED's, or subsidising those who can't afford them outright or with an interest free loan/ tax reduction etc.

They could take a tax on sales of less efficient homes, to push people into doing it.
 
thewanderer said:
This is ridiculous, absolutely noone gets pure hydrogen pumped to their house. There are no 100% renewable electricity tariffs, which was the original point.
Click to expand...
"This is ridiculous, absolutely noone gets pure hydrogen pumped to their house" today.

But maybe tomorrow, the gas pumped to almost every house in the Uk is in fact blended hydrogen with other low/zero carbon fuels ?
 
I've been looking at solar for a while, I don't have a south facing roof, mine is south east/North west facing. I already heat my house via a ASHP, which uses electricity, and because of the costs of pumping the "Free" heat round the house, it is still cheaper to use my gas boiler, which sadly is still needed as a ASHP still doesn't provide water hot enough for most domestic dwellings, my gas boiler also kicks in with heating if and when our outside temperature drops below -3. Sadly at the moment, the sheer costs of installing solar means at current prices it will never be cost effective in my house.
 
Billy69_uk said:
"This is ridiculous, absolutely noone gets pure hydrogen pumped to their house" today.

But maybe tomorrow, the gas pumped to almost every house in the Uk is in fact blended hydrogen with other low/zero carbon fuels ?
Click to expand...
It's possibly feasible to replace the gas within the pipe infrastructure with hydrogen, if the pipes can take it, but most of our gas pipes are old, and the pipes within any one network can be a mix of steel, ductile iron, cast iron and polyethylene, and they're not really rated above 7-10 bar. I doubt any network is anywhere near ready, and to get them ready would take a while. Apparently a very small number are running on a lean mix of 20% hydrogen, but that's a million miles away from the whole country going on 50-100% etc.

There's zero chance of new hydrogen pipe infrastructure going in, it would be cheaper to put a wind turbine in everyone's garden. It took decades to get fibre to most of the country, and that ductwork was largely already in place. Largely just a case of pulling out one cable, feeding another in and adding a few surface mounted cabinets. 100's of meters of this a day can be done a day with a two man crew (not including the cabinets).

It would cost around £1,000/ mtr to put a hydrogen pipe in, on average, where a polyethylene pipe or telecom pipe can cost as little as £10/ mtr. Most utilities are in the £100/mtr range though, especially if it's larger contractors doing it. The problem with things like hydrogen pipes is the crazy design specs, it needs a lot of people and companies in the chain.
 
Last edited:
ThatFragranceGuy said:
Any time I look at a solar panel calc the only way it makes me money is if I am home working guaranteed for the life of its installation. If so I make about £1500 through its life; if I'm out until 4pm each day it costs me money

Working from home:

View attachment 35977

Not working from home:

View attachment 35978


I thinking makes sense for new builds and people with wads of cash laid around but unless i'm missing something, without a new FIT scheme, it seems neutral or potential to lose money?
Click to expand...
ThatFragranceGuy said:
Any time I look at a solar panel calc the only way it makes me money is if I am home working guaranteed for the life of its installation. If so I make about £1500 through its life; if I'm out until 4pm each day it costs me money

Working from home:

View attachment 35977

Not working from home:

View attachment 35978


I thinking makes sense for new builds and people with wads of cash laid around but unless i'm missing something, without a new FIT scheme, it seems neutral or potential to lose money?
Click to expand...
TFG 👍 tho if it’s neutral and can be afforded, which isn’t a given, then we should surely do it? Helps the planet, secures our own energy supply. It’s a green investment. Paying the same cash into the pockets of an oil or gas baron helps no-one.
 
Markburke said:
TFG 👍 tho if it’s neutral and can be afforded, which isn’t a given, then we should surely do it? Helps the planet, secures our own energy supply. It’s a green investment. Paying the same cash into the pockets of an oil or gas baron helps no-one.
Click to expand...
don't get me wrong I am all for the idea of it, but for many people the outlay of £4-7k for something that might end up costing then money is a tough sell; MSE crunched numbers on this based on the April rise and said someone working from home would take 9 years to repay value, someone not working from home up to 17 years.

Remember at any point these past panels may fail and need replacing if not repairable , or require repairs, they lose 0.5% efficiency per year and SEG payments are not guaranteed and could end at any time.

I feel like for it to be realistic they need subsidising to make it a no brainer, coupled with insulation grants for walls and lofts, subsidies on batteries to allow benefit even if not at home etc else it will struggle to get off the ground.
 
Markburke said:
TFG 👍 tho if it’s neutral and can be afforded, which isn’t a given, then we should surely do it? Helps the planet, secures our own energy supply. It’s a green investment. Paying the same cash into the pockets of an oil or gas baron helps no-one.
Click to expand...
It's nowhere near neutral though. It is actually much worse than that. You have to consider the opportunity cost. 7% above inflation return is the long term trend investing in the stock market. Over 15 years that would be (£8k upfront cost, £100pa maintenance) would return £11k (or £6k over 10 years) which is far better than the £1500 return that a solar system will get you. A more conservative 3% average return would be £2,500 over 15 years (£1,500 over 10).

Doesn't seem like a good investment at all, even with rising electricity prices.
 
People and organisations should not be able to rent out or sell houses with less than 150mm loft insulation.

Martin Lewis said pay back on Solar is very long - something like 15 years. It may be a bit less now. I have never seen 2 years.

Do houses with solar sell for more?
 
ThatFragranceGuy said:
Any time I look at a solar panel calc the only way it makes me money is if I am home working guaranteed for the life of its installation. If so I make about £1500 through its life; if I'm out until 4pm each day it costs me money

Working from home:

View attachment 35977

Not working from home:

View attachment 35978


I thinking makes sense for new builds and people with wads of cash laid around but unless i'm missing something, without a new FIT scheme, it seems neutral or potential to lose money?
Click to expand...
What’s the lifetime calculated and the energy unit price it assumes you save.

Does it involve selling any surplus energy?
 
People talking about payback from solar probably don't understand why we have to rely on renewables in the first place if you think about it.
 
GazC_MFC said:
What’s the lifetime calculated and the energy unit price it assumes you save.

Does it involve selling any surplus energy?
Click to expand...
That is using a 20p unit price which is lower than it is now but it's factoring in over a 25 year life period. I know some will argue that it's already more expensive than that, but it's unlikely to remain at current levels for 25 years especially as you would now expect large investment in renewables / other sources from governments

Those two examples I ran assume two scenarios - scenario one where it pays a benefit is where I am at home during the day for that 25 year period so am able to use the excess energy generated. This is the more beneficial scenario because you get to use the power therefore can take advantage of it.

Scenario 2 I am at work Until 5pm so not able to use it and it's only mostly paid to the grid

Scenario 2 costs me money over the life of the example, scenario 1 makes a small profit assuming the unit doesn't fail completely before the end of it's expected life, needs no repairs beyond the servicing, we don't move house or the Smart Energy Guarantee isn't removed

Scenario 2 would be better if you bought a battery system, but that is another several thousand pounds.

Additional considerations is we have a direct southern facing house with ideal pitch and a 4 bed so a good amount of space for panels. Not everyone has a southern facing roof so will generate less. Or may be planning to move house, have odd shaped roof etc

I will keep looking into it and hopefully the government will subsidise it so it isn't the consumer taking all the risk.

Makes sense on new builds though
 
Last edited:
SmallTown said:
People talking about payback from solar probably don't understand why we have to rely on renewables in the first place if you think about it.
Click to expand...
Of course we do, people just don't have £4-8k sat around to spend on something that might end up costing them money in the long run so it makes sense to run the numbers. Just like recycling, people can do their part but are unlikely to impact the overall situation in any meaningful way and the change needs to come from industrial / commercial use changes and national supply level. You can't expect everyone to live in a southern facing property and buy a £4000 solar panel and spend a few thousand on batteries so they can use the power they generate while at work.
 
Last edited:
Nano said:
It's nowhere near neutral though. It is actually much worse than that. You have to consider the opportunity cost. 7% above inflation return is the long term trend investing in the stock market. Over 15 years that would be (£8k upfront cost, £100pa maintenance) would return £11k (or £6k over 10 years) which is far better than the £1500 return that a solar system will get you. A more conservative 3% average return would be £2,500 over 15 years (£1,500 over 10).

Doesn't seem like a good investment at all, even with rising electricity prices.
Click to expand...
Hi Nano,

I’m really interested in the maths of all this and I’m really grateful for everyone’s views.

My thinking on it is that it’s not really comparable to a stocks and shares investment as we already have a huge and rising energy overhead to consider.

For me there’s basically two boxes. One is how much you need to pay for gas and electric annually. This is dead money. Im paying a lot currently and it looks like that will double by the end of the year. So I want to be rid of that box if I can.

The other box is whatever the annual aggregated cost of solar would be over a set period. For me it would make sense to have a diverter and battery rather than export as key operating principle. My missus and I both work from home so it’s easy to say put washing and dishwasher on during the day.

So in the two boxes:
1) Existing fuel cost per annum = 5k (let’s say that becomes 8/9k with the estimated cost rises).
2) cost of solar - 5k install plus another 5 for battery etc. Plus say £100 annual maintenance.

So over 10 years

Box A is annually 8 or 9k (80/90k)
Box B is aggregated as 1.1k annually (11k)

The question for me is “can I totally remove box A with the existence of solar”. That’s what I’m looking to do, and the efficacy of the system then becomes really crucial to the case. I’d have 12/14 panels.

Plus I’d expect to have an EV in that 10 years so there’s also the rising cost of petrol to think about.

Really grateful for any thoughts from anyone who has solar already and thanks to everyone so far for all their thinking 👍
 
ThatFragranceGuy said:
Of course we do, people just don't have £4-8k sat around to spend on something that might end up costing them money in the long run so it makes sense to run the numbers. Just like recycling, people can do their part but are unlikely to impact the overall situation in any meaningful way and the change needs to come from industrial / commercial use changes and national supply level. You can't expect everyone to live in a southern facing property and buy a £4000 solar panel and spend a few thousand on batteries so they can use the power they generate while at work.
Click to expand...
Yes, so the conversation should go to what regulation, support can be given to allow everyone to get solar panels. Not people to rule them out completely.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top