Removing statues is it right or wrong

in a democracy the majority decide or elected representation so no they should not have taken it in there own hands - let due course decide and remove ..... (I certainly think a tvvat who got his money from human suffering should be honoured with a statue is another story ....)
 
This reminds me of the 1980s when student unions were renamed The Biko building and Nelson Mandela building! If communities decide that statues are no longer appropriate then why not remove and replace them? However this surely has to be about consensus and real leaders would be looking to bring communities together. The current campaign seems to be driving us further apart, before you know it we'll be like Northern Ireland with 'peace lines' and murals on walls!
 
Should the statue of Oliver Cromwell be removed because some are offended? Should Britannia class 70013 which bears his name be renamed?

Not bring flippant, btw. Genuine question.
 
alanmoodysdog said:
in a democracy the majority decide or elected representation so no they should not have taken it in there own hands - let due course decide and remove .....
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Absolutely.

Following a public campaign, the Council wanted to change the plaque on the statue to better reflect how he made his money and the human suffering involved. They were blocked by the Society of Merchant Venturers.

So the people (dēmos) took the power (kratia) into their own hands to effect change that was being blocked by an unelected elite*. Democracy in action.

*Membership of the Society of Merchant Venturers is by invitation only and they look for individuals who are interested in making a contribution in education, care for older people, social enterprise, charitable giving or the management of the Downs and have been successful in business and are active in voluntary activity in Bristol.

Unfortunately it looks like no one from a BAME background met that criteria:
https://www.merchantventurers.com/who-we-are/members/
 
Otto42 said:
If the majority of local people wanted it removed it should be, but I suspect this wouldn't be the case?
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Nobody in the immediate vicinity of the monument will voting for its removal anytime soon. Infact the monument was defaced a few months back and walking group lugged a log of gear up to clean it all up and paint the railings.
 
Which Cook monument are you talking about - the one on the top of Easby Moor - The obelisk is made of locally quarried sandstone and stands 60 feet high (18m). Topping the monument is a 'benben' stone; a pyramidal capstone.
It is also over 1000 ft up on top of Easy Moor.
What could and should happen is a new plaque be put up there.
But once again to state that James Cook was not involved in the slave trade. He worked with a Pacific islander Tupaia who acted as a navigator, translator, ambassador-diplomat. Cook and Joseph Banks toured the country with another islander Mai who was lauded as a celebrity. Mai met the Royal Society, went to Paris and had an audience with King George III.
 
fmttmadmin said:
Which Cook monument are you talking about - the one on the top of Easby Moor - The obelisk is made of locally quarried sandstone and stands 60 feet high (18m). Topping the monument is a 'benben' stone; a pyramidal capstone.
It is also over 1000 ft up on top of Easy Moor.
What could and should happen is a new plaque be put up there.
But once again to state that James Cook was not involved in the slave trade. He worked with a Pacific islander Tupaia who acted as a navigator, translator, ambassador-diplomat. Cook and Joseph Banks toured the country with another islander Mai who was lauded as a celebrity. Mai met the Royal Society, went to Paris and had an audience with King George III.
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This is why it is complex. I am very proud to come from the town where one of the most famous explorers and navigators in history came from, but there are people all around the world, especially those from Australasia and come Pacific Islands, where his name is mud.

Are we really going to start going around a tearing down every statue and monument, or replacing plaques because someone disagrees with it?
 
If you read what I put earlier in this thread (about an hour ago) you can see education at Cook Birthplace Museum is a celebration of history of all the cultures and an exploration (in all meanings of the word) of the world that Cook brought to Europe's attention back in 18th century.
It is quite the opposite of a celebration of slavery and thanks to this education kids in our area are at an advantage over many others and probably their parents as they get an understanding of many cultures as they were 300 years ago. It opens their eyes to the world then but also now.
 
Simon Clarke MP for Middlesbrough and East Cleveland just made a complete arsh of himself on Twitter, trying to justify the retention of statues like the one of Colston...

" it’s precisely because Germany has bravely confronted her past that Auschwitz still stands as a memorial of man’s inhumanity to man."

Oh dear...

1. Firstly Auschwitz is in Poland so nothing to do with Germany

2. It is there as a memorial to those killed, the victims NOT the SS Guards, Heinrich Himmler or Adolf hitler

FFS
 
Muttley said:
Simon Clarke MP for Middlesbrough and East Cleveland just made a complete arsh of himself on Twitter, trying to justify the retention of statues like the one of Colston...

" it’s precisely because Germany has bravely confronted her past that Auschwitz still stands as a memorial of man’s inhumanity to man."

Oh dear...

1. Firstly Auschwitz is in Poland so nothing to do with Germany

2. It is there as a memorial to those killed, the victims NOT the SS Guards, Heinrich Himmler or Adolf hitler

FFS
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Simon Clarke is an odious little **** playing politics for the money and notoriety. He gives zero 💩's about people.
 
Muttley said:
Simon Clarke MP for Middlesbrough and East Cleveland just made a complete arsh of himself on Twitter, trying to justify the retention of statues like the one of Colston...

" it’s precisely because Germany has bravely confronted her past that Auschwitz still stands as a memorial of man’s inhumanity to man."

Oh dear...

1. Firstly Auschwitz is in Poland so nothing to do with Germany

2. It is there as a memorial to those killed, the victims NOT the SS Guards, Heinrich Himmler or Adolf hitler

FFS
Click to expand...


Yes, he's wrong about Auschwitz, but he is correct that Germany has confronted the past. There are several Holocaust memorials in Germany, the best known one is in Berlin. There are monuments and memorials all over to people who were murdered by the Nazis. If you walk round many German cities you'll see stars on the pavement denoting that the property there was taken from (typically) Jewish families. The Soviet War memorials at Treptower and Straße des 17 Juni are maintained scrupulously, despite being regarded locally as the tombs of the Unknown Rapists. Concentration camps like Dachau which were located in what is in modern day Germany are marked by memorials.

I think it's a fair comment.
 
The German situation is quite complex - Germans in general accept their nation went too far under THOSE Nazis, but conveniently forget how their relatives often joined in and benefitted for a long while from that period. There certainly wasn't demonstrations and riots in Germany against Nazi rule. The average German at least tolerated the NAZI Party, but you would never believe that now, certainly in the public domain.

Some of my ancestors suffered in the industrial complex and poor housing created by Teesside' iron masters, dying at a young age, but I am not so bitter as to destroy statures to Bolckow and Vaughan. The Colston one was extreme, but to hide him away is not right neither. I would offer a full background to these characters and I want people to talk about their modern day equivalents and the billionaires who live off the poverty of those on very low wages and say by avoiding taxes.
 
Shouldn't we then knock down some of the public schools who educate the elite of our country who benefited from slave trade money, and lets not forget the Church of England?

Lets pick a date- say around 1700-1830 and smash everything that was built during those dates as possibly funded by the slave trade.

Where do we stop?
 
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