Removing statues is it right or wrong

Robert Nichols said:
Historian Ben Roberts gave a talk about this a year or too ago, Borobarmy, how statues locally were a very Victorian thing. In early 20th century you tended to remember people in other ways, perhaps turning them to stone and putting them on plinths was seen as well... pompous and Victorian perhaps. It was the tarnished by those guys on plinths that were Lords (not ladies), turning them to stone was confirming them as being the great and the good. Whether they were or were not.
Then after a long gap in time we got our footballer statues, by popular consent and finally more recently still, the war heroes, the VCs, outside the Dorman Museum and the cenotaph.
The words of Ali Brownlee are surely a very fitting tribute to a man that inspired with his voice and put our thoughts and emotions into words.
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So that's what Ben is up to these days. Didn't he make enough history in the 1997 FA Cup final? ;)
 
atypical_boro said:
So that's what Ben is up to these days. Didn't he make enough history in the 1997 FA Cup final? ;)
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As long as he doesn’t have his daft hair band in . Seriously I had a mooch after Robs insight and can’t find any planned talks ( understandably) . He does have a twitter albeit my iPad wouldn’t let me access one of its links
 
Soutra said:
Often, some or most of the money these slavers generated was used for philanthropic purposes. Building of hospitals, homes and other relief of misery for people in (say) Bristol did help to alleviate poverty. It's impossible to know how many people here benefited indirectly from slavers, but it's a very complex issue with many shades of grey. I am not condoning what happened but the building of statues is both understandable and unjustifiable.
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Most countries have elements of mythology built into their history. For those that acquired an empire it's stronger and more embedded.
Various age groups on this board will have had more or less the same history syllabus, especially in primary years.
My wife was in primary school in Africa. A mixed school of Africans, Asians and not many white kids, those being mostly English. A lot of white kids being sent to prep schools in South Africa, and what was then Rhodesia..
The history syllabus was exactly that which was being taught in England.
The place to start is with the deconstruction of these pervasive myths of the totally benevolent empire.
One reason that the government can't apologise for our involvement in the slave trade is that it would leave it wide open for massive claims of compensation.
 
At the risk of attack I’ll throw another angle in , so please don’t weigh into me as it is possibly relevant .

Where do we stop ??

My own past is borne of British landowners forcing my ancestors out of Mayo and those that survived the starvation and subsequent brutality , such as that of the Black and Tans could only manage to come as far as here ( like a huge proportion of Teessiders .

This nation subsequently has been kind to my family and I but history will live with it as
long as people live and pass on their story . My point is you have to stop at some point and draw a line looking forwards as opposed to back . I do note and it’s not lost on me that if you don’t forget then apathy could creep in and manifest itself again with whover .
 
Borobarmy said:
At the risk of attack I’ll throw another angle in , so please don’t weigh into me as it is possibly relevant .

Where do we stop ??

My own past is borne of British landowners forcing my ancestors out of Mayo and those that survived the starvation and subsequent brutality , such as that of the Black and Tans could only manage to come as far as here ( like a huge proportion of Teessiders .

This nation subsequently has been kind to my family and I but history will live with it as
long as people live and pass on their story . My point is you have to stop at some point and draw a line looking forwards as opposed to back . I do note and it’s not lost on me that if you don’t forget then apathy could creep in and manifest itself again with whover .
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I have a similar heritage but the point of the Bristol statue is that it was a monument which was actively celebrating such a person. I think the removal of it will be a small help in doing what you suggest. I imagine it's difficult to get past your history when there's a daily reminder of the person who made fortunes out of your ancestors towering over you, put there as an act of celebration by your own government. It would have been very helpful if our government had done this many years ago.
 
1finny said:
Some people don’t have a choice about which laws they live by.
They are killed because they are black
Others are constantly pulled over when they drive by the police because they are black
Others are followed around stores by security guards because they are black

Of course vandalism is an issue but, I would respectfully suggest, it is well down the pecking order of what needs sorting.
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You are missing the point Finny, it's not about the pecking order of crime but about picking and choosing which laws you choose to live by and not. If vandalism is OK then why not a bit of GBH or perhaps a cheeky little burglary. A crime is a crime regardless of it's magnitude.
 
Borobarmy said:
My point is you have to stop at some point and draw a line looking forwards as opposed to back . I do note and it’s not lost on me that if you don’t forget then apathy could creep in and manifest itself again with whover .
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I think therein lies IMO the key to progressing as a society. I understand the anger and hatred people have to some historical figures, it's with valid and justified reason and it's important to recognise why people feel this. To be consumed with hate and anger while looking at the past means you have your back to the future. I'm not saying ignore or erase the past, pretend it didn't happen and brush it under the carpet, I'm saying use the energy of hate and anger in passion and vigour instead. Be a catalyst for change with positivity and enthusiasm, turn to face the future and ask what can I do to make it better, what part can I play? Will there be a statue to remind us all of what I did to bring about change for the better and how I changed the world?

of course I don't have all, or even any, of the answers, but change is about attitude, desire and belief that you can. To be consumed with anger will only damage an individual or a group or a society, what's needed is to build the path forward and bring with you the ideals, values, beliefs, attitudes, hopes and dreams you feel make for a better place to be
 
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Borobarmy said:
At the risk of attack I’ll throw another angle in , so please don’t weigh into me as it is possibly relevant .

Where do we stop ??

My own past is borne of British landowners forcing my ancestors out of Mayo and those that survived the starvation and subsequent brutality , such as that of the Black and Tans could only manage to come as far as here ( like a huge proportion of Teessiders .

This nation subsequently has been kind to my family and I but history will live with it as
long as people live and pass on their story . My point is you have to stop at some point and draw a line looking forwards as opposed to back . I do note and it’s not lost on me that if you don’t forget then apathy could creep in and manifest itself again with whoever .
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Equally how many statues of English royalty or politicians are there in Southern Ireland from our time over there?
 
Ultimately the police have been backed into a corner here by the superior officers and government ministers. Now every statue or plaque of anybody with a history is fair game for the population to deface and destroy.
 
I believe generally the removal of statues should come about due to a groundswell of support for the removal of said statue from the community in which it is based. If people aren't bothered by it then keep it up.

In this instance the statue has been controversial for years. It has been removed during and as part of a prominent protest against racism. This IS HISTORY, a historical incident occurred yesterday in that act. The statue will be retrieved and placed in a museum where it will continue to exist and people can educate themselves as to the full and proper context of the statue and the man it immortalises.

Statues exist to immortalise and honour and it sends completely the wrong message having certain individuals displayed in that way.
 
Ref : James Cook

I went to a talk about him at the British Library a couple of years ago. All the staff that spoke at the talk were apprehensive about celebrating at all what Cook had achieved by mapping the coast of Australia and bringing knowledge of Australia etc to the UK. Half the talk was watching a film about aboriginal feelings of invasion, because they did not generally want white Europeans in Australia. Racism in Australia was not of Cook's making. He actually brought a representative of Tonga to England to meet, stay and talk with Cook's social circle in London. Neither did Cook claim ownership of Australia. He did work for the Royal Navy and I suspect it was 18 years later that someone UK Government official decided to use Australia as a penal colony for working class convicts such as people who dared to join a trade union.

Re: historical outrage

How far back do we go - William the Conquer and his Normans invaded my country and took ownership of most of it, burnt my ancestors dwellings down, stole our animals and generally laid waste to the whole of North Yorkshire for opposing him to the bitter end. We had to do exactly as the De Brus family (Normans) requested, for the next 200 years.

What is much more important is what is happening now. This awful stuff in the USA is of course all wrong and agree people should march and show their outrage and demand justice. Parts of the USA have always behaved very aggressively towards people of color including numerous public lynchings even in the 1940s. The police often joined in. Racism and a gun culture are also a bad mix and a police federation protecting racist police officers from serious reprimand. It will need radical action and culture change to stop it. The UK was racist too, but I do feel things have changed since the 1980s, but we still have to be on guard for any sort of predjudices.
 
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Redwurzel said:
Ref : James Cook

I went to a talk about him at the British Library a couple of years ago. All the staff that spoke at the talk were apprehensive about celebrating at all what Cook had achieved by mapping the coast of Australia and bringing knowledge of Australia etc to the UK. Half the talk was watching a film about aboriginal feelings of invasion, because they did not generally want white Europeans in Australia. Racism in Australia was not of Cook's making. He actually brought a representative of Tonga to England to meet, stay and talk with Cook's social circle in London. Neither did Cook claim ownership of Australia.
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Hope you had your Boro top on 👍
 
People who are drawing comparisons with other famous people and civilisations throughout history are a bit off the mark I think. The Romans (for example) got up to some terrible things by today's standards, but I think you'd struggle to argue that those things still have repercussions that are clearly felt by people in their day to day life in the present.

It's very easy for a white person to say we shouldn't be stuck in the past, we should look to the future. Slavery is intrinsically linked to racism and culture today. Of course the current generation didn't experience slavery, but they are still very much feeling some of the repercussions of it.

As for the "you shouldn't break the law" argument. Whether intended to or not this makes the assumption that all laws are just, which clearly isn't the case.

Vandalism in itself is wrong. But is vandalism of a statue honouring a slaver really wrong? The actual injustice was that the statue was still prominently displayed in 2020. It seems like lawful methods were previously tried to get it taken down and they failed. Laws shouldn't be broken lightly, particularly in a society like ours where most exist for good reason and are broadly fair and for good of the majority. But to blindly say you should never break the law under any circumstances and to do so is always wrong is naive.

Funny how no-one is talking about restoring the statue and putting it back on its plinth isn't it?
 
I don’t think anyone should lose any sleep over that particular figures' statue being removed.

The trouble is once you start this kind of thing where do you stop, and who decides who is an unsavoury figure and who isn’t? We're not living in a lawless state, we live in a democracy.

I understand folks living in Bristol have had an issue with the statue for some time, but surely they could have taken a vote on whether or not the statue should be removed?
 
parmoboy said:
I don’t think anyone should lose any sleep over that particular figures' statue being removed.

The trouble is once you start this kind of thing where do you stop, and who decides who is an unsavoury figure and who isn’t? We're not living in a lawless state, we live in a democracy.

I understand folks living in Bristol have had an issue with the statue for some time, but surely they could have taken a vote on whether or not the statue should be removed?
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As I understand they comprehensively debated it a few years back and obviously erred on keeping it . Peculiar today the mayor basically bid it good riddance .
Next up is Rhodes statue in Oxford which was similarly debated . Sharpening of knives I trust !
 
Colston Hall is taking down signage ahead of changing its name. Colston girls school has taken down it's statue of Edward Colston.
 
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