Police at Stoke - Disgusting Behaviour

They obviously had intelligence that some of the old school hoolies were having a day out.....or maybe Stoke's old hoolies were having a get together..
 
Muttley said:
Assuming just for a moment, that Staffs Police HAD read the threads on here about the behaviour by some of our roaming supporters. That behaviour was, as I recall, consumption of "Charlie" and consequent behaving like rrses including groping of female supporters, not violent confrontation of a hooligan nature. So, as reprehensible and as disgusting as that behaviour is, it should not in any way indicate the need for Police action of the sort we have heard reported from Stoke.

So other than wanting to "win the internets" I haven't a clue what @Tom_Boro is trying to say.
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Rifle is doing his duty to look good on the other forum, simple as that.
 
Sign of the times to come, what with all the bills being passed.

Football fans being emotional as they are, are the perfect guinea pigs for lessons in control.

Object to heavy handed police pressence......"Your knicked son" and have a banning order on top
 
Richyboro said:
They obviously had intelligence that some of the old school hoolies were having a day out.....or maybe Stoke's old hoolies were having a get together..
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It wasn’t obvious that they had intelligence of any kind. Good excuse for overtime and to empty all the old pepper spray canisters.
 
Just a warning for Jan 1st - last time we played there pre covid we were let out the ground but kettled in by tooled up riot /mounted Police on Bramall Lane for about 20 mins after the game. Unnecessary and intimidating.
 
newyddion said:
It wasn’t obvious that they had intelligence of any kind. Good excuse for overtime and to empty all the old pepper spray canisters.
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operation code name "xmas bonus".

It will interesting to see if future away games have an increased police presence, if so then boro risk rating must have changed. Similarly what will police numbers be in the next few home games for Stoke.

My biggest gripe with the police is the lack of dialogue, with the fans. There is no form of transparency from the police into policing strategies they always hide under the vail of criminal intelligence.You wont get a jot of comment or justification from Staffordshire constabulary or from Cleveland police who will have been in attendance at stoke and will have seen at first hand the scenes.

All fans want is to be treated with honesty and dignity, for far too long football fans have been treated worse than pretty much any other group in society.

I suggest more and more fans film the police at away games discreetly and report any incidents of mistreatment through official channels. Two sides can play at snidey behaviour
 
A good mate of mine is a Stokie. He said to me in the days before the match that a friend of his is senior police, and that they were staging a major operation based on intel.
I told him I was surprised to say the least and that I didn't expect the travelling fans to cause any trouble on this trip for this match.
Unusually I didn't go to Stoke this time - glad I didn't.

All the posts after the match were depressing.
The Staffs police and SCFC stewarding needs to be held to account for their actions.
I'm not sure who provided the "intelligence" from this end, but they need to have a look at themselves too.

I'm going to Blackpool. You can't let idiots stop what you've done for 45 years or so - and in far more dangerous times.
 
A couple of snippets around use of incapacitant spray from
APCO Guidance on the Use of Incapacitant Spray

2.5.12 Chief officers may wish to consider policies relating to possession of incapacitant spray at pre-planned public order events. It should be noted that there are no group tactical options for its use at such events and therefore use will be at the discretion of individual officers in accordance with the overriding principle of reasonableness and necessity.

2.5.13 Such action on the part of an officer may have a profound impact on crowd dynamics with obvious implications for public safety and public order. The spraying of incapacitants in these circumstances may, particularly in the case of CS, lead to cross contamination causing panic or even hysteria. Similarly, the use of incapacitant spray, again primarily CS although PAVA in a more limited way, in crowded public areas may cause significant cross contamination and another use of force option may be more appropriate. The
decision to use incapacitant spray against a person in these circumstances must be capable of subsequent justification and the closest scrutiny

2.6 Use
2.6.1 Use of the spray is one of a number of tactical options available to an officer who is faced with violence or the threat of violence. Its use must be lawful in all the circumstances. The decision to use the spray is an individual one for which the officer will be accountable. The impact factors referred to in the ‘Conflict Management Model’ may assist officers in making such judgement

I am no lawyer but to be spraying tactically and indiscriminately from vans as has been corroborated by several fans seems to go against the policy above. Does anyone know what the specific spray was used on the fans.
 
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Glover_elbow said:
A couple of snippets around cs use

2.5.12 Chief officers may wish to consider policies relating to possession of incapacitant spray at pre-planned public order events. It should be noted that there are no group tactical options for its use at such events and therefore use will be at the discretion of individual officers in accordance with the overriding principle of reasonableness and necessity.

2.5.13 Such action on the part of an officer may have a profound impact on crowd dynamics with obvious implications for public safety and
public order. The spraying of incapacitants in these circumstances may, particularly in the case of CS, lead to cross contamination causing panic or even hysteria. Similarly, the use of incapacitant
spray, again primarily CS although PAVA in a more limited way, in crowded public areas may cause significant cross contamination and another use of force option may be more appropriate. The
decision to use incapacitant spray against a person in these circumstances must be capable of subsequent justification and the closest scrutiny

2.6 Use
2.6.1 Use of the spray is one of a number of tactical options available to an officer who is faced with violence or the threat of violence. Its use must be lawful in all the circumstances. The decision to use the spray is an individual one for which the officer will be accountable. The impact factors referred to in the ‘Conflict Management Model’ may assist officers in making such judgement

I am no lawyer but to be spraying tactically and indiscriminately from vans as has been corroborated by several fans seems to go against the above passage
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It certainly does, and you would think, like a firearm, whoever discharged their spray would have to complete the necessary paperwork to justify using it. It shouldn't be difficult to bring this person(s) to task.
 
Glover_elbow said:
A couple of snippets around use of incapacitant spray from
APCO Guidance on the Use of Incapacitant Spray

2.5.12 Chief officers may wish to consider policies relating to possession of incapacitant spray at pre-planned public order events. It should be noted that there are no group tactical options for its use at such events and therefore use will be at the discretion of individual officers in accordance with the overriding principle of reasonableness and necessity.

2.5.13 Such action on the part of an officer may have a profound impact on crowd dynamics with obvious implications for public safety and public order. The spraying of incapacitants in these circumstances may, particularly in the case of CS, lead to cross contamination causing panic or even hysteria. Similarly, the use of incapacitant spray, again primarily CS although PAVA in a more limited way, in crowded public areas may cause significant cross contamination and another use of force option may be more appropriate. The
decision to use incapacitant spray against a person in these circumstances must be capable of subsequent justification and the closest scrutiny

2.6 Use
2.6.1 Use of the spray is one of a number of tactical options available to an officer who is faced with violence or the threat of violence. Its use must be lawful in all the circumstances. The decision to use the spray is an individual one for which the officer will be accountable. The impact factors referred to in the ‘Conflict Management Model’ may assist officers in making such judgement

I am no lawyer but to be spraying tactically and indiscriminately from vans as has been corroborated by several fans seems to go against the policy above. Does anyone know what the specific spray was used on the fans.
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How fantastic, well done Glover.
I wasn't there but I'd love to see someone who was lodge a formal complaint.
Unless things like this are challenged they'll just keep happening.
 
Thanks to admin for finally approving my account so I can post this!...

I was at Stoke. I was one of the "lucky" ones who was trapped on a bus rather than standing out in the freezing cold, but I still saw some utterly appalling and indefensible behaviour from the police. I travel all round the country to watch Boro, and I've seen huge differences between good policing and poor policing, but that was another level entirely.

My complaint to Staffs Police has been acknowledged, as has my FOI request for their risk assessments. The FSA are also taking an interest. Sadly, the only organisation that hasn't replied to me yet is Middlesbrough Football Club.

If anyone had kids with them, I would strongly urge that you make a complaint to Staffordshire Safeguarding Children Board. If the police try to claim we were a bunch of violent thugs who needed to be treated that way, they are going to have to explain why they ran a pre-planned operation that trapped children in with violent thugs.
 
clay said:
Thanks to admin for finally approving my account so I can post this!...

I was at Stoke. I was one of the "lucky" ones who was trapped on a bus rather than standing out in the freezing cold, but I still saw some utterly appalling and indefensible behaviour from the police. I travel all round the country to watch Boro, and I've seen huge differences between good policing and poor policing, but that was another level entirely.

My complaint to Staffs Police has been acknowledged, as has my FOI request for their risk assessments. The FSA are also taking an interest. Sadly, the only organisation that hasn't replied to me yet is Middlesbrough Football Club.

If anyone had kids with them, I would strongly urge that you make a complaint to Staffordshire Safeguarding Children Board. If the police try to claim we were a bunch of violent thugs who needed to be treated that way, they are going to have to explain why they ran a pre-planned operation that trapped children in with violent thugs.
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Hello clay - I can tell you that Middlesbrough Supporters Forum has also been working with the FSA and also Middlesbrough Football Club before raising complaints about the shocking treatment of the entire away support at Middlesbrough v Stoke City. The main priority has to be get some response about why this happened, some responsibility taken for the operation and an undertaking that this will never be repeated at Stoke City or to Boro fans again.
 
TO:
Chief Constable Chris Noble

CC:
Police and Crime Commissioner, Staffordshire Police,
Independent Office for Police Conduct

Dear Sir

As an organisation representing all the major Middlesbrough F.C fans groups, we would like to ask for your comments on the totally unacceptable treatment travelling fans were subjected to at the recent Stoke v Middlesbrough match (11/12/21). Innocent fans, including families and older people were caught up in the extremely heavy-handed policing outside the stadium, including pepper spraying. Many fans missed trains due to being held back after the final whistle without explanation.

Please could you address the following:

1. Why was there a major police presence and operation at the match?

2. Why were the reasons for supporters being held back not communicated properly?

3. Why did it appear that pepper spray was used in a manner that meant innocent fans were affected?

4. Can you guarantee Middlesbrough fans they can travel to Stoke City again without fearing the police operation?

5. Will you apologise to innocent supporters caught up in what was a horrible experience for them?

6. To whom should individual supporters complain about their experiences?

We understand that the police have a job to do but believe this is keeping the public safe, not putting them in situations that are at best uncomfortable and at worst intimidating.

We look forward to your urgent response.

Yours faithfully

Mark Motley
Chair
Middlesbrough Supporters Forum
 
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