Oh, for the ethos of Union Berlin.

I always wish that all the big leagues (Italian, Spanish, French and English) were run on the 50+1 basis. I don't think it is healthy for the game to have two or three super-teams in the whole of Europe whilst the rest look on with admiration or envy. The German system would ensure that the greatest players were more spread out across the leagues and more clubs would stand a chance of experiencing glory from time to time.

I don't think it will happen in the short term because greed shouts the loudest, but at the same time I think that the current system (much like neoliberalism or continuous growth) is unsustainable.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
I always wish that all the big leagues (Italian, Spanish, French and English) were run on the 50+1 basis. I don't think it is healthy for the game to have two or three super-teams in the whole of Europe whilst the rest look on with admiration or envy. The German system would ensure that the greatest players were more spread out across the leagues and more clubs would stand a chance of experiencing glory from time to time.

I don't think it will happen in the short term because greed shouts the loudest, but at the same time I think that the current system (much like neoliberalism or continuous growth) is unsustainable.
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Would it?

The Bundesliga is overwhelmingly dominated by Bayern Munich, who hoover up most of the best players.
 
Beverleyred said:
It’s the 50 + 1 rule for the majority of German clubs. The fans have a say in how their respective clubs are managed. From what I hear, it works fairly well.
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A fans forum that actually works then l, rather than people getting round the table and giving the club a reach around session
 
A few clubs in this country are group of fans owned.

Gillingham?
AFC Wimbledon?
Ebbsfleet? - the fans used to pick the team
Hereford FC after Hereford United folded.

If 5,000 of us put in £5,000 each that would £25m - probably not enough to buy the Boro. And I doubt 5,000 fans would be willing to do it.
 
The Germam Constitution roughly states the sole purpose of the state is to "aid growth , protect the weak from the strong, and the poor from the rich."
Not a bad basis for Govt, effectivly written by us at the end of the war. Pity we haven't something similar.
 
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret said:
How did German fan ownership come about? I assume they started off as privately owned like over here. Think a bunch of them started off as works clubs as well.
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It’s quite complex Sheriff. Most of the East German clubs were state owned, mainly run as Sports clubs for the Stasi, Army etc.
Union were the exception to the rule, as they were the only club in the Obersliga that were a Civilian club. Hence the reason they became the ‘dissident’ club.
A lot of their fans ended up in prison for all sorts of misdemeanours!
When the wall came down, everything changed. All the professional clubs in the east and west joined the Bundesliga system. Over time, rules and regulations were put in place, the 50 + 1 rule being one of them. I hope that makes sense, I’m not an expert btw, but as I have a soft spot for Union, I take an interest.
 
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Fmttm fanzine writer Thomas Bartley is just back from Berlin and visiting Union Berlin's stadium - he intends to talk about it on our podcast tomorrow.
 
TeaCider said:
Would it?

The Bundesliga is overwhelmingly dominated by Bayern Munich, who hoover up most of the best players.
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Yes it would. Bayern Munich are a naturally rich club in a very wealthy city, But teams like Dortmund, with 81000 league gates week in week out, struggle to keep the cream of the players that they uncover (see Bellingham and Haarland). It isn't as though Germany don't produce good players of their own; they have the best international record in Europe, but they have fewer European Cup/Champions League titles than other Major countries except France.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Yes it would. Bayern Munich are a naturally rich club in a very wealthy city, But teams like Dortmund, with 81000 league gates week in week out, struggle to keep the cream of the players that they uncover (see Bellingham and Haarland). It isn't as though Germany don't produce good players of their own; they have the best international record in Europe, but they have fewer European Cup/Champions League titles than other Major countries except France.
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Why would it?

The German system hasn't made the German league more equal or competitive, it's got the same one club dominance that many leagues suffer from.

I don't see why changing the ownership model around Europe would have a different effect than it's having in Germany.

The big clubs will still dominate.
 
TeaCider said:
Why would it?

The German system hasn't made the German league more equal or competitive, it's got the same one club dominance that many leagues suffer from.

I don't see why changing the ownership model around Europe would have a different effect than it's having in Germany.

The big clubs will still dominate.
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No, but the German League gradually lost its competitiveness since the advent of falsely rich clubs around Europe. In the first ten years of the Premiership only three teams won the league and without the big spending anomaly that was Blackburn, it would only have been two. In the same period in the Bundesliga four teams won the championship without the Blackburn effect.

If Germany decided to sell itself down the river the way that English clubs did, with their big crowds and the quality of the stadiums, they could offer a better product than the English league, but they chose not to.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
No, but the German League gradually lost its competitiveness since the advent of falsely rich clubs around Europe. In the first ten years of the Premiership only three teams won the league and without the big spending anomaly that was Blackburn, it would only have been two. In the same period in the Bundesliga four teams won the championship without the Blackburn effect.

If Germany decided to sell itself down the river the way that English clubs did, with their big crowds and the quality of the stadiums, they could offer a better product than the English league, but they chose not to.
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Surely Leipzig have done that? It’s just that in Germany, Bayern Munich were so powerful they haven’t managed to topple them (yet).
 
B_G said:
And RB Leipzig?
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And hoffenheim.

Hertha Berlin have a very rich benefactor who is very much against the 50+1 rule.

1860 Munichs benefactor basically pulled all funding and got them relegated to the 3.liga, the rumour around the time was because outside 2.bundesliga you don't need the 50+1 rule and he wanted full control. Don't think that ever happened.
 
atypical_boro said:
Surely Leipzig have done that? It’s just that in Germany, Bayern Munich were so powerful they haven’t managed to topple them (yet).
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free_pint said:
And hoffenheim.

Hertha Berlin have a very rich benefactor who is very much against the 50+1 rule.

1860 Munichs benefactor basically pulled all funding and got them relegated to the 3.liga, the rumour around the time was because outside 2.bundesliga you don't need the 50+1 rule and he wanted full control. Don't think that ever happened.
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Well yes, some will be looking at what's happened to teams like Chelsea, Man City and PSG and will be wanting a change so that they can cash in.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
No, but the German League gradually lost its competitiveness since the advent of falsely rich clubs around Europe. In the first ten years of the Premiership only three teams won the league and without the big spending anomaly that was Blackburn, it would only have been two. In the same period in the Bundesliga four teams won the championship without the Blackburn effect.

If Germany decided to sell itself down the river the way that English clubs did, with their big crowds and the quality of the stadiums, they could offer a better product than the English league, but they chose not to.
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So you can't actually say why it would have any impact then, it's just anti-Premier League feelings.

3 different winners to 4 different winners isn't anything particularly noteworthy, Bayern Munich finished 2nd in most of the seasons they didn't win in that period.
Newcastle should have won the league but had a glorious bottle job.

There were 5 different La Liga winners, 4 different Serie A winners, 8 different Ligue 1 winners, so the ownership didn't make them any more competitive than the other Major leagues of Europe in the period you chose.

There wasn't even a German national league until 1963, Bayern Munich have won 33 of the 60 top flight seasons, which is comfortably the highest league title win percentage of any of the major European leagues at 55%.

By way of comparison, Manchester United have only won 16% of English league titles.
Even if you limit it to the Premier League era, they're only on 42%, and that percentage is going to drop again this season, compared to Bayern Munich's 68%.

It's an ownership model that I like the idea of, but it definitely hasn't made things more competitive on the pitch in Germany.
 
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