Nurses strike to end

[coluka]

It is your attitude coluka that widens the wealth divide year on year. You have bought into the myth that is international economics.

You seem to be suggesting we let workers go hungry whilst the rich accumulate more wealth at our expense.

There are other ways.

Sickening of you to interpret that i am suggesting workers go hungry. You say MY attitude widens the wealth divide, I wonder what yours does to a national economy

I am talking about Dr’s wanting a 34% pay rise. I have even said I am comfortable with them getting above inflation pay rises for the next few years by way of some catch up. There is no debating with someone who throws false accusations at people like you just did. You ignored the points I raised earlier and decided to play the man instead…. Bravo

 

[Laughing]

Sickening of you to interpret that i am suggesting workers go hungry. You say MY attitude widens the wealth divide, I wonder what yours does to a national economy

I am talking about Dr’s wanting a 34% pay rise. I have even said I am comfortable with them getting above inflation pay rises for the next few years by way of some catch up. There is no debating with someone who throws false accusations at people like you just did. You ignored the points I raised earlier and decided to play the man instead…. Bravo

Play the man, I did no such thing. I am simply vehemently disagreeing with your political view. I am definately playing the point, not you Coluka. Your clinging to an economic model that doesn't work and over the years has caused untold deaths. Austerity, alone, has directly caused 300k deaths since it was introduced in 2010. So yes, deflating wages further will kill people.

34% pay rise isn't inflation busting, that is a tory lie. It brings doctors back to where they were in 2010. Let me say this again, there is plenty of money available, you just have to tax it.

 

[coluka]

Play the man, I did no such thing. I am simply vehemently disagreeing with your political view. I am definately playing the point, not you Coluka. Your clinging to an economic model that doesn't work and over the years has caused untold deaths. Austerity, alone, has directly caused 300k deaths since it was introduced in 2010. So yes, deflating wages further will kill people.

34% pay rise isn't inflation busting, that is a tory lie. It brings doctors back to where they were in 2010. Let me say this again, there is plenty of money available, you just have to tax it.

Firstly, You did play the man whether you think that or not.

Secondly it is NOT my political view it is my economical view thank you.

I have no truck with increased taxes done fairly, but every action has a reaction.
Higher wages raise household income and consumer spending, this in turn raises demand for goods and services, this provides scope for companies to raise wholesale and retail prices leading to higher inflation and so it would go on if unchecked. To reduce inflation and spiralling costs you have to dampen demand. I have said on other threads they should raise taxes to help do so, not rely on just interest rates.

Should everyone have their pay uprated by inflation from 2010?
How would that be paid for?
How would you do it?
Which group(s) would you raise taxes on and to what levels? Will business stay in the UK or move to lower tax areas If some did, what then?
What would happen to our already negative outlook rating from the likes of Moody’s or Fitch?
What would happen to the interest rates, borrowing costs?


Do you think Labour or any political party would give doctors or anyone for that matter a 34% rise?

Would giving Dr’s a 34% rise help narrow the national wealth divide that you accused ‘my attitude‘ of widening?

 

[coluka]

No doubt about it firms have been profiteering and still are and it needs intervention.

 

[Laughing]

Firstly, You did play the man whether you think that or not.

Secondly it is NOT my political view it is my economical view thank you.

I have no truck with increased taxes done fairly, but every action has a reaction.
Higher wages raise household income and consumer spending, this in turn raises demand for goods and services, this provides scope for companies to raise wholesale and retail prices leading to higher inflation and so it would go on if unchecked. To reduce inflation and spiralling costs you have to dampen demand. I have said on other threads they should raise taxes to help do so, not rely on just interest rates.

Should everyone have their pay uprated by inflation from 2010?
How would that be paid for?
How would you do it?
Which group(s) would you raise taxes on and to what levels? Will business stay in the UK or move to lower tax areas If some did, what then?
What would happen to our already negative outlook rating from the likes of Moody’s or Fitch?
What would happen to the interest rates, borrowing costs?


Do you think Labour or any political party would give doctors or anyone for that matter a 34% rise?

Would giving Dr’s a 34% rise help narrow the national wealth divide that you accused ‘my attitude‘ of widening?

I played the man, because you said so? It's a get out of jail card for some. I did no such thing, I know, because it was me that made the comment.

To your questions, yes everyone who is going hungry, using foodbanks and have starving children should be given a sufficient pay rise so they can live not survive. If that requires parity with 2010, then yes, why wouldn't I? If you don't want that then you are complicit in what the government are doing and happy with the economic model that makes you poorer and the uber wealthy richer. You happy with that?

You happy with the 300k dead due to austerity measures?

You happy with key workers using food banks and going hungry?

You happy with pensioners freezing?

Do I think labour would goive doctors or anyone else a 34% payrise? Well the tories just did it for bankers by removing bonus caps, so why not everyone else? To be clear Labour wouldn't, but they wouldn't have had to. When Labour have been in power public sector wages went up higher than inflation.

There are alternatives, and for whatever reason, you are not ahhpy with them.

Your attitude to economics is a problem yes. You actively want people to be poorer. I don't agree with that, it's inhumane.

 

[sherlock]

I played the man, because you said so? It's a get out of jail card for some. I did no such thing, I know, because it was me that made the comment.

To your questions, yes everyone who is going hungry, using foodbanks and have starving children should be given a sufficient pay rise so they can live not survive. If that requires parity with 2010, then yes, why wouldn't I? If you don't want that then you are complicit in what the government are doing and happy with the economic model that makes you poorer and the uber wealthy richer. You happy with that?

You happy with the 300k dead due to austerity measures?

You happy with key workers using food banks and going hungry?

You happy with pensioners freezing?

Do I think labour would goive doctors or anyone else a 34% payrise? Well the tories just did it for bankers by removing bonus caps, so why not everyone else? To be clear Labour wouldn't, but they wouldn't have had to. When Labour have been in power public sector wages went up higher than inflation.

There are alternatives, and for whatever reason, you are not ahhpy with them.

Your attitude to economics is a problem yes. You actively want people to be poorer. I don't agree with that, it's inhumane.

The problem is people buying into the ‘yes it’s not right but what can we do?’ mindset.

See it in here all the time.

 

[Laughing]

The problem is people buying into the ‘yes it’s not right but what can we do?’ mindset.

See it in here all the time.

To change things it will require a siesmic shift in attitudes and understanding. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, unfortunately.

 

[coluka]

I played the man, because you said so? It's a get out of jail card for some. I did no such thing, I know, because it was me that made the comment.

To your questions, yes everyone who is going hungry, using foodbanks and have starving children should be given a sufficient pay rise so they can live not survive. If that requires parity with 2010, then yes, why wouldn't I? If you don't want that then you are complicit in what the government are doing and happy with the economic model that makes you poorer and the uber wealthy richer. You happy with that?

You happy with the 300k dead due to austerity measures?

You happy with key workers using food banks and going hungry?

You happy with pensioners freezing?

Do I think labour would goive doctors or anyone else a 34% payrise? Well the tories just did it for bankers by removing bonus caps, so why not everyone else? To be clear Labour wouldn't, but they wouldn't have had to. When Labour have been in power public sector wages went up higher than inflation.

There are alternatives, and for whatever reason, you are not ahhpy with them.

Your attitude to economics is a problem yes. You actively want people to be poorer. I don't agree with that, it's inhumane.

There you go again with your personal accusations. I don’t want anyone to be poorer. I am probably poorer now than i was in 2010 myself. I was on the receiving end of false accusations of you interpreting that i thought it was ok for workers to go hungry and that my attitude widened the health divide, you brought it to a personal level, so yes you played the man and have since subtly repeated it in comments above like saying my attitude to economics is a problem, last I checked, I wasn’t the chancellor. Inflation along with % pay rises generally sees the wealth divide widen. I disagree with pay rises on percentage terms and believe people should get a flat rate monetary rise. It costs the same amount for a CEO to buy a loaf of bread as it does a cleaner.

I agree everyone who is going hungry should have sufficient funds to the basics of life, shelter, food, water, clothing, energy and opportunity to work.
It is a leap of faith to believe that 300K+ died directly because of austerity. I have no doubt austerity will have been a contributory factor in excess deaths and lower life expectancy, but lifestyles and life choices made will have been too, not everyone makes good choices, I also accept not everyone can and many factors can and do play there part, it is a complex chain and events way before 2010 will have impacted on current life expectancy Imho.

You suggest I don’t want people to have 2010 parity. It would be lovely if we could go back to 2010 and live our lives over, but we can’t. The consequences on the economy would not cope were that done It would also mean some people having money removed from them if applied across the board, it is unrealistic to argue for it to happen. What is done is done and can’t be undone overnight. It can be done slowly but surely through fairer wage control and taxation. The government needs to raise taxes to enable to support the less well off and it also needs to get a grip on inflation and how some businesses operate without driving them abroad to lower tax economies. I have no faith any government would do what I’d like though. We need a responsible, practical government willing to make a pragmatic start from the here and now

I am not happy anyone needs a foodbank or that anyone can’t afford essential items like housing or utilities, to even think i would be is ridiculous. We have no idea what Labour would have done, but I am sure had they won in 2010 the country would be a better place.

However, ifs and buts and maybes ignore the here and now and the practicalities of moving forward helping those in need more than those that don‘t is a starting point. A 34% rise for Dr’s which is the original point of our debate will not directly help that happen in economical terms But i get the link to recruitment, retention and waiting lists. The governments refusal to negotiate is the wrong approach, clearly and only makes matters worse not better.

You say I am not happy with the alternatives? What have i said i am not happy about, could you point out what these alternative i am not happy about are please?

I am happy for tax rises, fairer wealth distribution over time through wage increases above inflation, providing inflation is reducing although that is a tough trick to pull off given the amount of love people have for power and greed in society and government of all shades. Our respective individual views and our understandings and beliefs are largely irrelevant anyhow.

 

[Laughing]

There you go again with your personal accusations. I don’t want anyone to be poorer. I am probably poorer now than i was in 2010 myself. I was on the receiving end of false accusations of you interpreting that i thought it was ok for workers to go hungry and that my attitude widened the health divide, you brought it to a personal level, so yes you played the man and have since subtly repeated it in comments above like saying my attitude to economics is a problem, last I checked, I wasn’t the chancellor. Inflation along with % pay rises generally sees the wealth divide widen. I disagree with pay rises on percentage terms and believe people should get a flat rate monetary rise. It costs the same amount for a CEO to buy a loaf of bread as it does a cleaner.

I agree everyone who is going hungry should have sufficient funds to the basics of life, shelter, food, water, clothing, energy and opportunity to work.
It is a leap of faith to believe that 300K+ died directly because of austerity. I have no doubt austerity will have been a contributory factor in excess deaths and lower life expectancy, but lifestyles and life choices made will have been too, not everyone makes good choices, I also accept not everyone can and many factors can and do play there part, it is a complex chain and events way before 2010 will have impacted on current life expectancy Imho.

You suggest I don’t want people to have 2010 parity. It would be lovely if we could go back to 2010 and live our lives over, but we can’t. The consequences on the economy would not cope were that done It would also mean some people having money removed from them if applied across the board, it is unrealistic to argue for it to happen. What is done is done and can’t be undone overnight. It can be done slowly but surely through fairer wage control and taxation. The government needs to raise taxes to enable to support the less well off and it also needs to get a grip on inflation and how some businesses operate without driving them abroad to lower tax economies. I have no faith any government would do what I’d like though. We need a responsible, practical government willing to make a pragmatic start from the here and now

I am not happy anyone needs a foodbank or that anyone can’t afford essential items like housing or utilities, to even think i would be is ridiculous. We have no idea what Labour would have done, but I am sure had they won in 2010 the country would be a better place.

However, ifs and buts and maybes ignore the here and now and the practicalities of moving forward helping those in need more than those that don‘t is a starting point. A 34% rise for Dr’s which is the original point of our debate will not directly help that happen in economical terms But i get the link to recruitment, retention and waiting lists. The governments refusal to negotiate is the wrong approach, clearly and only makes matters worse not better.

You say I am not happy with the alternatives? What have i said i am not happy about, could you point out what these alternative i am not happy about are please?

I am happy for tax rises, fairer wealth distribution over time through wage increases above inflation, providing inflation is reducing although that is a tough trick to pull off given the amount of love people have for power and greed in society and government of all shades. Our respective individual views and our understandings and beliefs are largely irrelevant anyhow.

I am accusing no one. You really need to learn to accept a different point of view Coluka.

On the 300k deaths due to austerity. It may be a stretch but Glasgow University don't agree neither do the folks who peer reviewed the paper.

On the not being happy, you said we can't give doctors a pay parity increase, and the reason, because everyone in the public sector will want them. These are the very people going hungry and cold. By definition, you support the, less than inflation pay rises, which, make everyone poorer, forces them to use food banks to feed themselves and their kids.

I aint playing the man, I am playing your politics, which I don't agree with.

Read back what you said and my responses, I didn't insult anyone, you were the one who brought the tired old play the man argument.

 

[coluka]

It is your attitude coluka that widens the wealth divide year on year. You have bought into the myth that is international economics.

You seem to be suggesting we let workers go hungry whilst the rich accumulate more wealth at our expense.

There are other ways.

Your words are clear you stated My attitude widens the wealth divide year on year, nobody else's, mine. You also said i seem to be suggesting we let workers go hungry. 2 accusatory comments right there. You played the man initially and ignored the main content and context imho. Perhaps its you that needs to re-read his comments.

I said Dr’s can’t be given a 34% increase now, this year, in one go. I suggested they could be given above inflation rises year on year to enable some reasonable catch up down the line. I would like to see people from all areas paid more and fairly and never see austerity again, but every bit of money has to be found, we can’t keep printing it willy-nilly. There will be people from various employment areas using foodbanks and being careful with energy now, the new JAM’s as I referred to them previously, people who will have been comfortable under Mays definition.

I have already explained why i made the play the man comments then you lastly make a patronising comment about really needing to learn to accept a different point of view. I fully understand your points of view, I think its wrong and believe it would hurt the economy and impact the ordinary folk who are just about managing further, as it absolutely would have impact on inflation and all areas across the public sector. Wage restraint, whether you like it or not is a recognised tool worldwide to help dampen inflation, as is tax increases, which i do support, but only if it is spent on public services, and helping deal with the various crises created by themselves and on targeting those that really need it in all walks of life not just the Dr’s getting a huge pay increase. Pragmatism is needed, I get you don’t agree and think there are all sorts of things that the government can and should do that wont impact the economy, despite our borrowing being over 100% of GDP and a falling rating outlook, although you have not told me what exactly these sensible things actually are.
I’m done, enjoy your evening.

 

[Laughing]

Your words are clear you stated My attitude widens the wealth divide year on year, nobody else's, mine. You also said i seem to be suggesting we let workers go hungry. 2 accusatory comments right there. You played the man initially and ignored the main content and context imho. Perhaps its you that needs to re-read his comments.

I said Dr’s can’t be given a 34% increase now, this year, in one go. I suggested they could be given above inflation rises year on year to enable some reasonable catch up down the line. I would like to see people from all areas paid more and fairly and never see austerity again, but every bit of money has to be found, we can’t keep printing it willy-nilly. There will be people from various employment areas using foodbanks and being careful with energy now, the new JAM’s as I referred to them previously, people who will have been comfortable under Mays definition.

I have already explained why i made the play the man comments then you lastly make a patronising comment about really needing to learn to accept a different point of view. I fully understand your points of view, I think its wrong and believe it would hurt the economy and impact the ordinary folk who are just about managing further, as it absolutely would have impact on inflation and all areas across the public sector. Wage restraint, whether you like it or not is a recognised tool worldwide to help dampen inflation, as is tax increases, which i do support, but only if it is spent on public services, and helping deal with the various crises created by themselves and on targeting those that really need it in all walks of life not just the Dr’s getting a huge pay increase. Pragmatism is needed, I get you don’t agree and think there are all sorts of things that the government can and should do that wont impact the economy, despite our borrowing being over 100% of GDP and a falling rating outlook, although you have not told me what exactly these sensible things actually are.
I’m done, enjoy your evening.

Here we go again. I don't like you're gcse economics. I don't even know you and I don't care about "playing the man" you fool!

 

[outoftown]

It's perfectly feasible, and right to increase the wages and salaries of junior doctors to the equivalent of most trades men.
It would have no impact on inflation individually.

It also wouldn't have everyone else in the public sector clambering for 30% pay rise.
Every public sector worker I know , or have heard of , understands the difference between themselves in terms of study costs and training , and doctors.

And if it helps , my wife's backdated pay award landed as a nurse ....
They took 40% of it in tax etc ..
And she's been on the same salary for over 8 years.
Shes done 30 years now , and has another 10 minimum before eligibility for retirement.

It's way way below inflation, and we're still worse off than a decade ago

 

[RedAsABeetroot]

The problem is people buying into the ‘yes it’s not right but what can we do?’ mindset.

See it in here all the time.

So everyone who's lost out since 2010 gets a 34% pay rise. If inflation goes up to 15% and interest rates to 8 or 9% are most people better off?

 

[Laughing]

So everyone who's lost out since 2010 gets a 34% pay rise. If inflation goes up to 15% and interest rates to 8 or 9% are most people better off?

This is a really poor argument. Almost every economist agrees that public sector pay increases do not affect inflation. The single biggest factor driving inflation is corporate profits not wages. Profits are above inflation whilst wages are below.

Furthermore if we hand out 5% pay increases everyone is already worse off.

You are falling for tory misinformation and lies.

 

[RedAsABeetroot]

This is a really poor argument. Almost every economist agrees that public sector pay increases do not affect inflation. The single biggest factor driving inflation is corporate profits not wages.

It wasn’t an argument it was a question. I'd agree with your point above, but I don't feel people in the private sector are fairing any better in terms of pay rises, with the exception of the CEOs, etc.

 

[Laughing]

It wasn’t an argument it was a question. I'd agree with your point above, but I don't feel people in the private sector are fairing any better in terms of pay rises, with the exception of the CEOs, etc.

The private sector is a bit above the public sector but still below inflation. However they have faired better during the lady 13 years of austerity, so generally a bit better off.

 

[Rofesleg]

Here we go again. I don't like you're gcse economics. I don't even know you and I don't care about "playing the man" you fool!

Coluka isn't a fool. No need for that.

 

[sherlock]

So everyone who's lost out since 2010 gets a 34% pay rise. If inflation goes up to 15% and interest rates to 8 or 9% are most people better off?

Point proven.