Not getting rid of my 2.5 Litre Petrol

Randy said:
Good post Andy. Informative without the need to point score.

Do you think that car manufacturers will bring in a form of scrappage scheme to help with the transition to hybrid vehicles once the new rules regarding the ban on sales of petrol and diesel engined cars comes in? I think it would go a long way to helping people like myself who are interested in hybrid/fully electric vehicles but cannot afford them at the moment.
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I'm not sure they will. It would have to be government backed I don't think a car company would do that. None of them take EV seriously enough yet. With the exception of Tesla and possibly Hyundai. When you have big guns like Toyota actively campaigning against EV and Merc simply throwing batteries into their g class cars and not caring about packaging, some car companies are a long way from the full transition. VAG might get their but they have an awful lot of diesels still to sell. It would be a good idea though. As has discussed on here: initial cost is a big stopper and the second hand market isn't mature enough yet.

But please, please don't get a hybrid. The whole point of EV is to stop us burning stuff. A hybrid still needs petrol and still has emissions. It's like when cigarette manufacturers put filters on their cigarettes. They were still deadly, just slightly less. EV ar like vaping: not perfect in any way but way less carcinogenic.
 
Soutra said:
That's a significant gamble. There aren't many 4 year old cars with 40k miles on the clock that fetch £75K.
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I get your point, but like I said, it doesn't need to be as good as that, but that's where I think it will be.

There are loads of Porsches in that region mind, and the Taycan is the least depreciating one (other than rare GT3's which go up, not down) of the mainline models for sale.

The cheapest used 2020 Normal Taycan (when it came out) is 100k (start at 72k new), that's not even the Cross, which only just came out (not seen one yet, other than the test drive). So the Cross, when I sell will basically be the entry point for anyone wanting a taycan cross, and the cross ahs the bigger battery as standard.

There are no 100k, 4-year-old EV cars doing 0-60 in 3 seconds, charging at 280kW, with a 300 mile range, so there won't be any at 75k as that doesn't exist yet.

I suppose the Model S, may be close to that, but it's older tech, and far less reputable, so won't hold as well as the Porsche, but they drop about 40% over 4 years, so by that reckoning the 100k car maybe down to 60k at worst. I think more people (especially in the UK), would choose the Taycan over the Model S.
 
Randy said:
Good post Andy. Informative without the need to point score.

Do you think that car manufacturers will bring in a form of scrappage scheme to help with the transition to hybrid vehicles once the new rules regarding the ban on sales of petrol and diesel engined cars comes in? I think it would go a long way to helping people like myself who are interested in hybrid/fully electric vehicles but cannot afford them at the moment.
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Cheers (y)

I don't think so, it will just be a natural progression, EV's will come in at the top and old ICE's at the end of life will drift away naturally.

There are enough benefits where the EV is much more cost-effective, it will just take a while for everyone to realise it, as some still think it's a massive change, where as in reality it isn't (to the vast majority, doing the vast majority of their miles).

Once a lot of used EV's filter through, and new buyers move onto their 2nd and 3rd EV, it will change things quickly.
 
Andy_W said:
Cheers (y)

I don't think so, it will just be a natural progression, EV's will come in at the top and old ICE's at the end of life will drift away naturally.

There are enough benefits where the EV is much more cost-effective, it will just take a while for everyone to realise it, as some still think it's a massive change, where as in reality it isn't (to the vast majority, doing the vast majority of their miles).

Once a lot of used EV's filter through, and new buyers move onto their 2nd and 3rd EV, it will change things quickly.
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I think if the government are serious about their net zero targets then a scrappage scheme is the way forward.
 
Kilmer's content is extremely unbiased. He does like to sound off a bit but he tells it like it is. If any of his information is inaccurate, it should be called out, but it hasn't. Obviously it's from an American perspective but what goes on there will be mostly relevant here.

The guy on the other video is extremely keen on EVs. But he's extremely critical of the UK infrastructure and has had all sorts of problems with charging on motorways.
 
Andy_W said:
I get your point, but like I said, it doesn't need to be as good as that, but that's where I think it will be.

There are loads of Porsches in that region mind, and the Taycan is the least depreciating one (other than rare GT3's which go up, not down) of the mainline models for sale.

The cheapest used 2020 Normal Taycan (when it came out) is 100k (start at 72k new), that's not even the Cross, which only just came out (not seen one yet, other than the test drive). So the Cross, when I sell will basically be the entry point for anyone wanting a taycan cross, and the cross ahs the bigger battery as standard.

There are no 100k, 4-year-old EV cars doing 0-60 in 3 seconds, charging at 280kW, with a 300 mile range, so there won't be any at 75k as that doesn't exist yet.

I suppose the Model S, may be close to that, but it's older tech, and far less reputable, so won't hold as well as the Porsche, but they drop about 40% over 4 years, so by that reckoning the 100k car maybe down to 60k at worst. I think more people (especially in the UK), would choose the Taycan over the Model S.
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The next 10 years will see many more companies producing batteries, and better batteries, and cheaper batteries. The supply of batteries is one of the bottlenecks in the supply chain at the moment, and the performance of the batteries is another. So by 2030 I think things will look very different. Porsche may be immune from the swings and roundabouts of the second hand car market - because it's Porsche - but I'm pretty sure lots of other car makers will be producing electric cars that retail for <£30K. That's the game changer.
 
I read about a year ago that Sony or was it Samsung had built a prototype battery for phones using layers of graphene which charged in a couple of minutes. If charging car batteries could be done in 5 minutes it's comparable to filling a gas tank and would take pressure off the infra.
 
Randy said:
I think if the government are serious about their net zero targets then a scrappage scheme is the way forward.
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They're not that serious, not for things that cost them ££, it is mainly smoke and mirrors. It's the public, greens and labour who are driving this more I think.

I'm starting to sort of think this climate thing is largely unstoppable anyway now though, especially without the worst players on board.

We're developed we can more afford to go greener, other developing nations can't (and won't), and they won't be stopped unless they're forced with sanctions or war etc, it's not going to be pretty. We have no real oil and gas, and it's going to run out anyway, so solar/ wind suits us anyway, it will have to.

It's going to be absolutely horrendous for places which are going to get flooded out, it going to be a long process and cost moving people and that will lead to wars, no doubt about it.
 
Soutra said:
The next 10 years will see many more companies producing batteries, and better batteries, and cheaper batteries. The supply of batteries is one of the bottlenecks in the supply chain at the moment, and the performance of the batteries is another. So by 2030 I think things will look very different. Porsche may be immune from the swings and roundabouts of the second hand car market - because it's Porsche - but I'm pretty sure lots of other car makers will be producing electric cars that retail for <£30K. That's the game changer.
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I thought carmakers were struggling with chips rather than batteries at the minute? It's probably both mind!

The Tesla Model 2 should be a game-changer, but the other carmakers are getting cheaper and better, it will get there.

I think the ID3 starts at 30k and the ID4 35k, not bad for a VW with 220-250 mile range, especially when a golf with a mid-spec is about 27k. It's not far off.
 
Andy_W said:
I thought carmakers were struggling with chips rather than batteries at the minute? It's probably both mind!

The Tesla Model 2 should be a game-changer, but the other carmakers are getting cheaper and better, it will get there.

I think the ID3 starts at 30k and the ID4 35k, not bad for a VW with 220-250 mile range, especially when a golf with a mid-spec is about 27k. It's not far off.
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Got to go for the Golf, surely?
 
Andy_W said:
I thought carmakers were struggling with chips rather than batteries at the minute? It's probably both mind!

The Tesla Model 2 should be a game-changer, but the other carmakers are getting cheaper and better, it will get there.

I think the ID3 starts at 30k and the ID4 35k, not bad for a VW with 220-250 mile range, especially when a golf with a mid-spec is about 27k. It's not far off.
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Strangely enough I have just been looking at the ID4 & the soon to be released 5 online and they are among the better looking mainstream EV's out there.

I am keen to switch from ICE to EV. I currently drive a BMW 320 M Sport and do c20k miles p.a with a minimum of 40 per day through the week and often up to 150 so no real worries there . Have it on a PCP which is comfortably affordable but clearly to go EV would require an increase in payment so from my viewpoint I have to be sure that the switch to EV would provide sufficient cost saving overall to at least keep my outgoings as they are now. With electricity cost breakdowns requiring a degree in quantum physics to properly understand it isn't easy to work out so taking that plunge feels a risk.

My main thought around range anxiety would be that I often travel from home (Brotton) to the Lakes and spend my days running around the fells or taking in a few of the towns so would need to be sure I could comfortably do 200 miles+ without the need to charge given I won't always be parking up in major towns or car parks.
 
Andy_W said:
I thought carmakers were struggling with chips rather than batteries at the minute? It's probably both mind!

The Tesla Model 2 should be a game-changer, but the other carmakers are getting cheaper and better, it will get there.

I think the ID3 starts at 30k and the ID4 35k, not bad for a VW with 220-250 mile range, especially when a golf with a mid-spec is about 27k. It's not far off.
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I think this is a problem. People know that EV are more expensive then their ICE equivalent and they often think it's dramatically so. As you show it's only slightly more. As we both know this cost will easily be recouped by the running costs.

I think there are 2 reasons. There are genuine FUD like gent on here who just want to resist EV as much as possible and will come up with any crazy scenario to argue against it. These people are lost and will just have to finally accept it when they can't buy their precious ICE.

However there is still a lot of misinformation about EV and it's up to us owners to spread the word. People still don't understand that range anxiety doesn't exist. People are wary of the new we of refuelling and don't actually know that for 90% of the people it's far more convenient than an ICE because it's new. And people think EV are crippling expensive to buy. I call this the Tesla effect. People equate Tesla to EV and look at them and go "Well, they are very expensive compared to an equivalent ICE" because, well, they are. VW aren't though. Porsche Aren't. Hyundai Aren't. all of their EV are slightly expensive then their equivalent ICE version but only just. Also I'm not convinced that Porsche aren't cheaper. Whats the difference in price between a panamera and a Taycan?

We can largely ignore the Gent type FUD people but it is important to educate the rest. To allay their fears. And to be honest: Yes the charger infrastructure isn't where it should be yet for example.
 
Teesste said:
Strangely enough I have just been looking at the ID4 & the soon to be released 5 online and they are among the better looking mainstream EV's out there.

I am keen to switch from ICE to EV. I currently drive a BMW 320 M Sport and do c20k miles p.a with a minimum of 40 per day through the week and often up to 150 so no real worries there . Have it on a PCP which is comfortably affordable but clearly to go EV would require an increase in payment so from my viewpoint I have to be sure that the switch to EV would provide sufficient cost saving overall to at least keep my outgoings as they are now. With electricity cost breakdowns requiring a degree in quantum physics to properly understand it isn't easy to work out so taking that plunge feels a risk.

My main thought around range anxiety would be that I often travel from home (Brotton) to the Lakes and spend my days running around the fells or taking in a few of the towns so would need to be sure I could comfortably do 200 miles+ without the need to charge given I won't always be parking up in major towns or car parks.
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Range anxiety genuinely isn't a thing. Trust me, but I get your concerns about charger availability. that is a very real thing. However check out. https://www.zap-map.com it shows you all the chargers in an area. There are a significant number of chargers all over though lakes. Although it appears there are a lot more round ambleside than the rest. But check it out. You may be surprised to find how many there are. Although, ignore any that say "BPPulse" as they won't work
 
Teesste said:
Strangely enough I have just been looking at the ID4 & the soon to be released 5 online and they are among the better looking mainstream EV's out there.

I am keen to switch from ICE to EV. I currently drive a BMW 320 M Sport and do c20k miles p.a with a minimum of 40 per day through the week and often up to 150 so no real worries there . Have it on a PCP which is comfortably affordable but clearly to go EV would require an increase in payment so from my viewpoint I have to be sure that the switch to EV would provide sufficient cost saving overall to at least keep my outgoings as they are now. With electricity cost breakdowns requiring a degree in quantum physics to properly understand it isn't easy to work out so taking that plunge feels a risk.

My main thought around range anxiety would be that I often travel from home (Brotton) to the Lakes and spend my days running around the fells or taking in a few of the towns so would need to be sure I could comfortably do 200 miles+ without the need to charge given I won't always be parking up in major towns or car parks.
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For you:
ID4, assume 35kWh per 100 miles, so 0.35kWh per mile or 2.85 miles per kW (albeit the WLTP is better than this, around 4 miles per kW if you drive like a granny on slow roads)
20k miles = 20,000 x 0.35 = 7,000kW
7000 x £0.15 a kw = £1,050 in electric for the year, you may do some public charging but for you maybe <10% of your annual miles (I'm less than 5%), so maybe £1,100 electric for the year?

ID4 is an SUV, and SUV's not as economical as saloons, due to wind resistance and weight. So assume your 320 is 50mpg and SUV equivalent 40mpg
20,000 miles /40mpg = 500 gallons = 2,250 litres
2250 litres X 1.48 (av diesel price) = £3,330

So, you're easily going to save 2k, electric might go up, but it will likely come back down, diesel is only going one way.

ID4 has a useable battery of 77kW, but saving 10kW spare, even at 3 miles per kW that's 210-mile range, the WLTP milage is 320 mind, so you could get 250 in most circumstances.

As for the lakes, you may get there and back on one charge. EV's aren't the best at doing 80 on the motorway, especially not SUV's, in winter. But most of the A66 you will be down to 60mph (following a truck), and the lakes area way less than that and more braking, which suits EV's much better due to regen, so you should get there and back on one charge.

If you plan on doing lot of running around the ID4 can charge at 125kW an hour (so full charge in 40 minutes), albeit you don't get 125kW for more than half the charging time. There are no 125kW chargers over there mind, or along the way, but quite a few 50kW. So if you charged 25kW (a third of your battery) in half an hour, that would get you at least 75 more miles. So you could get a top-up on your way there, on your way back or whilst you're there. This would take around half an hour. It doesn't sound ideal, but there would be loads of chargers at 7,11,22,25kW where you could get topped up whilst you went for a walk of for some food etc. You could even charge at 2kW from any 3 pin plug, last resort but overnight will get you 75 more miles.

I've been over there twice, and mine has a range of about 200-250 depending how I drive it, I'm a bit closer than you, but not as economical, so I reckon your experience would be the same as mine. First time I topped up at Windermere on a 50kW, the second time I plugged in the 3 pin plug at the cottage thing where we were staying, neither put us out from what we would otherwise have done, and this is a worse case scenario I suppose.
 
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SmallTown said:
Range anxiety genuinely isn't a thing. Trust me, but I get your concerns about charger availability. that is a very real thing. However check out. https://www.zap-map.com it shows you all the chargers in an area. There are a significant number of chargers all over though lakes. Although it appears there are a lot more round ambleside than the rest. But check it out. You may be surprised to find how many there are. Although, ignore any that say "BPPulse" as they won't work
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BP Pulse works fine for me, maybe they just hate Tesla drivers :LOL: You get the tesla network too though, so you can't complain!
 
Andy_W said:
For you:
ID4, assume 35kWh per 100 miles, so 0.35kWh per mile or 2.85 miles per kW (albeit the WLTP is better than this, around 4 miles per kW if you drive like a granny on slow roads)
20k miles = 20,000 x 0.35 = 7,000kW
7000 x £0.15 a kw = £1,050 in electric for the year, you may do some public charging but for you maybe <10% of your annual miles (I'm less than 5%), so maybe £1,100 electric for the year?

ID4 is an SUV, and SUV's not as economical as saloons, due to wind resistance and weight. So assume your 320 is 50mpg and SUV equivalent 40mpg
20,000 miles /40mpg = 500 gallons = 2,250 litres
2250 litres X 1.48 (av diesel price) = £3,330

So, you're easily going to save 2k, electric might go up, but it will likely come back down, diesel is only going one way.

ID4 has a useable battery of 77kW, but saving 10kW spare, even at 3 miles per kW that's 210-mile range, the WLTP milage is 320 mind, so you could get 250 in most circumstances.

As for the lakes, you may get there and back on one charge. EV's aren't the best at doing 80 on the motorway, especially not SUV's, in winter. But most of the A66 you will be down to 60mph (following a truck), and the lakes area way less than that and more braking, which suits EV's much better due to regen, so you should get there and back on one charge.

If you plan on doing lot of running around the ID4 can charge at 125kW an hour (so full charge in 40 minutes), albeit you don't get 125kW for more than half the charging time. There are no 125kW chargers over there mind, or along the way, but quite a few 50kW. So if you charged 25kW (a third of your battery) in half an hour, that would get you at least 75 more miles. So you could get a top-up on your way there, on your way back or whilst you're there. This would take around half an hour. It doesn't sound ideal, but there would be loads of chargers at 7,11,22,25kW where you could get topped up whilst you went for a walk of for some food etc. You could even charge at 2kW from any 3 pin plug, last resort but overnight will get you 75 more miles.

I've been over there twice, and mine has a range of about 200-250 depending how I drive it, I'm a bit closer than you, but not as economical, so I reckon your experience would be the same as mine. First time I topped up at Windermere on a 50kW, the second time I plugged in the 3 pin plug at the cottage thing where we were staying, neither put us out from what we would otherwise have done, and this is a worse case scenario I suppose.
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Thanks @Andy_W for a great a reply. Well worthy of further thought it seems. Keen to do my bit and also like to keep up to date with technology.
 
Andy_W said:
BP Pulse works fine for me, maybe they just hate Tesla drivers :LOL: You get the tesla network too though, so you can't complain!
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Maybe I'm unlucky! But BP pulse at Doubletree manchester piccadilly has only worked once for me, and I've had complete failures on all the units at Bakewell (and there are a few) at the Holiday Inn in Doncaster. and at a hotel who's name I can't remember in Salford Quays. That one was a classic as tfor two days the didn't even answer the phone when I called to get it looked at. Also my own apartment has BPpulse chargers which failed and BP took 4 months to come and repair them.

In short: I don't like BP pulse!!

Which has got me thinking: what is the most reliable charger you have had? Mine is Instavolt, that have not once let me down. I'm one of the rare people who even had a supercharger fail on my. luckily there are so many stalls at the locations usually that you can just move to another. Technically I've not had an Ionity (yes, I know, I'm rich!) fail to charge. Although one memorable "splash and dash" where I added about 6KW cost me 75 euros because the charger didn't register that I'd stopped it. Checking on the app it still thought I was charging 5 days later.
 
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