Money saving tips

It used to make chuckle listening to the guy on here who said EVs are really cheap because of 'TCO'. The maths of that circle could never be squared 😆
It wasn't "the" guy, there were lots of us, you are now making up stories about times when you were peddling made up stories :LOL:. You sound like the Tories.

You were pretty much the only one who couldn't or wouldn't understand, but loads of us have proven it for years. Just because you can't figure it out, doesn't mean it doesn't work (for new/ newer cars).
 
It was a flawed theory for me (and most others) because you were effectively pricing in future depreciation on vehicles that had an inflated value in a used car market bubble. Latest figures show depreciation is accelerating in the EV sector.

On average, what you save in fuel doesn't compensate for the high purchase price and the now high depreciation levels. I also don't think you factored in insurance cost - much higher on average for an EV. Yes, you may come up with a niche vehicle that you will apply your logic to that comes out favourable. But it's not going to be relevant for the overwhelming majority of people.

 
It was a flawed theory for me (and most others) because you were effectively pricing in future depreciation on vehicles that had an inflated value in a used car market bubble. Latest figures show depreciation is accelerating in the EV sector.

On average, what you save in fuel doesn't compensate for the high purchase price and the now high depreciation levels. I also don't think you factored in insurance cost - much higher on average for an EV. Yes, you may come up with a niche vehicle that you will apply your logic to that comes out favourable. But it's not going to be relevant for the overwhelming majority of people.

Erm, that was a factor of the TCO, still is, just like fuel, tax etc are, they're variables and these will change in balance, the overall result is still similar. But you didn't point your current argument out, back at that time did you, as it wasn't an argument then? Seems like another shift of the goalposts from "the gent", par for the course.

All cars were not depreciating as much back then, now they're all depreciating more (as is par for the course for cars). For EV's it's offset, as the price of electric has gone through the floor (I've been paid to charge for the last few months), then never mind fuel is creeping up.

As for fuel, based on current typical prices:
12,000 miles = ~3000kW = £210
12,000 miles = ~300 gallons = £2,300

Good luck getting that £2,000 a year difference back, between any comparable cars.

Every day the new purchase price gap between EV's and ICE is smaller, there's more changing points (this doesn't really mater for most), there's better batteries (this doesn't really mater for most), longer ranges(this doesn't really mater for most), and a lot more EV choice, as this is the direction the manufacturers are going, whether you like it or not. Will you still be arguing this in 10 years when there are next to no new ICE cars for sale? Every minute you type, your argument is less and less relevant.

Me, talking about a niche? :LOL: Every example I've ever been given of another persons niche I've managed to debunk in about 5 minutes. If I wanted to create my own niche now it would be far too easy, which is why I don't do it. I'll just use other peoples examples from cars they're considering, when they ask the question. The only niche for me is I would only consider an EV if I can charge at home or work.

As per your article, the only reason EV's could drop that much was because they managed to retain value extremely well as demand was so high, and production was low, to lose depreciation you actually have had to have retained value, so to speak. Now production has caught up with demand, and price wars are driving new EV prices down, it means older ones can now start to trickle through at reasonable prices, to compete with the old cars/ tech you love so much.

If anyone was in the market for a new car now I would advise them against it, if buying on current typical finance, whether that's EV or ICE, as the rates are just too high. Just buy a 2nd hand one, there's plenty about, and wait a couple of years. There are some 0% rates about on EV's at the minute though, which would be a massive saving over something like 10% APR.
 
If anyone was in the market for a new car now I would advise them against it, if buying on current typical finance, whether that's EV or ICE, as the rates are just too high. Just buy a 2nd hand one.

But this is what expo was saying all along 😆😎
 
Just to add to the figures presented by Andy_W.

My unleaded car does 12,000 miles a year - I get 12.5 miles per litre and currently pay 151.9p per litre = £1,458 per year on fuel. Its a Super Mini class car. (95bhp)

The price of unleaded has risen recently I was only paying 136.9p a month ago. I would guess the average I have paid over the last 12 months is around 145p.
 
But this is what expo was saying all along 😆😎
Who is expo, and why does he think every time and situation is the same? I was suggesting people to fix their mortgage for 5 years 1.5 years ago (which is what I did), and I'd tell them to do the opposite now, times change.

....and nice selective quoting to cut out "there are some 0% rates about on EV's at the minute though, which would be a massive saving over something like 10% APR." Never mind the rest of my post clearly showing a £2k fuel saving per year alone.

You're either being deceptive intentionally, i.e a liar, or you're just inexperienced with EV's/ TCO etc. Wouldn't mind that normally, but on a money saving thread where people are trying to help and educate others, what you're doing is pretty sad.
 
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Just to add to the figures presented by Andy_W.

My unleaded car does 12,000 miles a year - I get 12.5 miles per litre and currently pay 151.9p per litre = £1,458 per year on fuel. Its a Super Mini class car. (95bhp)

The price of unleaded has risen recently I was only paying 136.9p a month ago. I would guess the average I have paid over the last 12 months is around 145p.
Yeah, sounds like you're getting 55mpg, a bit more than the 40mpg average I think I used, which is the UK average. I used £1.60 per litre too I think, as I think that's the UK average now (of diesel and unleaded).

I wouldn't know what local forecourt prices are (or have been), as I've not been to one in about 2 years never mind bothered to look at prices.

For my car the comparable car to it probably gets 20mpg at best, so I'm saving about £4,000 a year in fuel alone.

Hard to match up an equivalent EV with yours, performance wise, as not many manufacturers have targeted the lower power end of the market yet. I think I used 4 miles per kWh (model 3), and there are some of the lower performance EV's getting 6 miles per kWh, maybe even more than that out soon, especially if people stop worrying about range (lugging round an oversized battery).
 
Who is expo, and why does he think every time and situation is the same? I was suggesting people to fix their mortgage for 5 years 1.5 years ago (which is what I did), and I'd tell them to do the opposite now, times change.

....and nice selective quoting to cut out "there are some 0% rates about on EV's at the minute though, which would be a massive saving over something like 10% APR." Never mind the rest of my post clearly showing a £2k fuel saving per year alone.

You're either being deceptive intentionally, i.e a liar, or you're just inexperienced with EV's/ TCO etc. Wouldn't mind that normally, but on a money saving thread where people are trying to help and educate others, what you're doing is pretty sad.
You've effectively and eventually caught up - or perhaps you haven't? My position was always very clear and simple. I wouldn't trade in my petrol car for an EV because the cost to benefit ratio made no sense. I also advised anyone purchasing a car to buy a used one. Something you are now advocating - but you're 12-18 months behind.

In terms of saving money - I've always been against taking on a monthly payment. Only spend what you can afford. But going off your logic this doesn't matter because it's all about 'TCO'. But I'd strongly disagree. Although running costs are important - the average person will often over estimate what they can pay in terms of what vehicle they can afford with a monthly payment. This also leads to higher insurance and future potential repair costs.

In essence, for most people it is very important to separate the purchase price of a vehicle from running costs. It's also important not to rely on depreciation values and use this as justification to buy a more expensive vehicle.
 
You've effectively and eventually caught up - or perhaps you haven't? My position was always very clear and simple. I wouldn't trade in my petrol car for an EV because the cost to benefit ratio made no sense. I also advised anyone purchasing a car to buy a used one. Something you are now advocating - but you're 12-18 months behind.

In terms of saving money - I've always been against taking on a monthly payment. Only spend what you can afford. But going off your logic this doesn't matter because it's all about 'TCO'. But I'd strongly disagree. Although running costs are important - the average person will often over estimate what they can pay in terms of what vehicle they can afford with a monthly payment. This also leads to higher insurance and future potential repair costs.

In essence, for most people it is very important to separate the purchase price of a vehicle from running costs. It's also important not to rely on depreciation values and use this as justification to buy a more expensive vehicle.
Is your memory bad or are you just intentionally trying to mislead?

You we talking about much older ICE cars, you were not talking about cars a year old, or EV's a year or two old like I am. I specifically remember as I must have said about 100 times you don't seem to ever compare like for like.

You like old cars, a new car will never make sense for you. In 2045 you will be buying a 10 year old EV, if you're still around and driving then. You're not the target market for new EV's, as you're not even the target market for new ICE cars. It's not difficult, but trying to explain this to you is.

Probably 80% of people pay for their car monthly and everyone pays for their fuel monthly, just like you pay for yours monthly. Monthly cost is largely irrelevant though, TCO should be what matters most to people who don't live week to week (they're not in the market for newer cars), as this is the only thing you bank balance cares about after 2-3 years or whatever.

Would you rather have two separate payments of £300 and £200, or just pay one payment of £400? Or would you not just rather pay £350 and £50? You should factor for depreciation (for all options), but as the figure is not known with certainty you apply value and probability, to work out probable equity.

I can't figure out if you're just that daft, or whether you're just being disingenuous, either way it's not a good look.
 
Oh joy, another decent thread ruined by a stupid EV slapfight 🙄
Yeah, sorry, but he started it by talking a load of crap about something he has zero experience with.

I wasn't going to let slide, as it could cost people more than they need to be spending.
 
Is your memory bad or are you just intentionally trying to mislead?

You we talking about much older ICE cars, you were not talking about cars a year old, or EV's a year or two old like I am. I specifically remember as I must have said about 100 times you don't seem to ever compare like for like.

You like old cars, a new car will never make sense for you. In 2045 you will be buying a 10 year old EV, if you're still around and driving then. You're not the target market for new EV's, as you're not even the target market for new ICE cars. It's not difficult, but trying to explain this to you is.

Probably 80% of people pay for their car monthly and everyone pays for their fuel monthly, just like you pay for yours monthly. Monthly cost is largely irrelevant though, TCO should be what matters most to people who don't live week to week (they're not in the market for newer cars), as this is the only thing you bank balance cares about after 2-3 years or whatever.

Would you rather have two separate payments of £300 and £200, or just pay one payment of £400? Or would you not just rather pay £350 and £50? You should factor for depreciation (for all options), but as the figure is not known with certainty you apply value and probability, to work out probable equity.

I can't figure out if you're just that daft, or whether you're just being disingenuous, either way it's not a good look.
The 'TCO' cost effectively becomes redundant if you're buying used over new. It's like that with nearly every product - it's not that hard to work out.

Knowing what you're paying for the vehicle is also crucial. The 'per month' mentality is nonsense - it's simply a marketing gimmick used to draw people in. Rule number 1 is know the price of your vehicle...rule number 2 is know the price of your vehicle. The variable costs bundled in to form 'TCO' aren't reliable. These things can change dramatically. Especially if you go further down the road and start bringing used EV batteries into the equation.

My stance has always been people who buy new and swap their vehicles regularly always pay more. Of course they do - there's nothing really to debate. Much better to buy a vehicle after its rate of depreciation has peaked - because you're obviously getting better value. This really isn't rocket science.
 
The 'TCO' cost effectively becomes redundant if you're buying used over new. It's like that with nearly every product - it's not that hard to work out.

Knowing what you're paying for the vehicle is also crucial. The 'per month' mentality is nonsense - it's simply a marketing gimmick used to draw people in. Rule number 1 is know the price of your vehicle...rule number 2 is know the price of your vehicle. The variable costs bundled in to form 'TCO' aren't reliable. These things can change dramatically. Especially if you go further down the road and start bringing used EV batteries into the equation.

My stance has always been people who buy new and swap their vehicles regularly always pay more. Of course they do - there's nothing really to debate. Much better to buy a vehicle after its rate of depreciation has peaked - because you're obviously getting better value. This really isn't rocket science.
Your post is redundant, just like every other.

Knowing what you're paying is crucial, and the more variables you factor for and the more parts you add to the equation, the more accurate the total cost will likely be. You're comparing fag packet maths with half the numbers missing, with a full set off accounts and a forecast based on that.

Your fuel is never going to be free, your tax is always going to be more, your servicing is always going to be more, your warranty is likely going to be less duration.

Every point about EV's (or any point with stats for that matter) I've ever made has been to compare against comparable cars, as compare against cars which have been out as long. 10 years ago there were not many, 2 years ago there were a few, now there are loads.

Your stance has always been to try and compare two incomparable things, like comparing something 5-10 years old with something 1 year old, without paying any attention to the fact that not many people want a 5-10 year old car, and the number lessens the older you go.

You like buying old cars, great, we get it. Not everyone likes old stuff, most would probably have new stuff if they could and lots can. You can only buy your "old" car as about 1-10 people down the line have owned it and got rid of it.

What's your argument going to be when the EV's are 3-5 year old?

Compare the TCO of a 2 year old EV and 2 year old ICE and there is only going to be one winner. Funny thing is I've done it 3/3 now (2 EV's and a Hybrid), and won every time, by a mile.
 
Your post is redundant, just like every other.

Knowing what you're paying is crucial, and the more variables you factor for and the more parts you add to the equation, the more accurate the total cost will likely be. You're comparing fag packet maths with half the numbers missing, with a full set off accounts and a forecast based on that.

Your fuel is never going to be free, your tax is always going to be more, your servicing is always going to be more, your warranty is likely going to be less duration.

Every point about EV's (or any point with stats for that matter) I've ever made has been to compare against comparable cars, as compare against cars which have been out as long. 10 years ago there were not many, 2 years ago there were a few, now there are loads.

Your stance has always been to try and compare two incomparable things, like comparing something 5-10 years old with something 1 year old, without paying any attention to the fact that not many people want a 5-10 year old car, and the number lessens the older you go.

You like buying old cars, great, we get it. Not everyone likes old stuff, most would probably have new stuff if they could and lots can. You can only buy your "old" car as about 1-10 people down the line have owned it and got rid of it.

What's your argument going to be when the EV's are 3-5 year old?

Compare the TCO of a 2 year old EV and 2 year old ICE and there is only going to be one winner. Funny thing is I've done it 3/3 now (2 EV's and a Hybrid), and won every time, by a mile.
Of course knowing what you're paying is crucial - that's the whole point. Work out how much the car costs and then work out the running costs. Mixing everything up to give a monthly figure doesn't give any clarity - it's an infinite liability. Getting a car on finance is a liability you have to meet - so know what you're paying.

Comparing different vehicles at different ages is a very normal thing to do. Nearly everybody buying a used car does it. But you can of course compare them against new vehicles as well. That's where the best savings are to be had. This is the real world we're in - people buying things will make these calculations to see what they can afford and where the value lies.

As already stated - my stance is that you'll always pay more if you buy new. The more regularly you buy new or change to new the more you pay. It's oh so simple.
 
Using the toilets when visiting a supermarket and the Riverside will save around 40p a go per person.

A common way to waste money is the wash clothes at too high a temperature, many machine default to 40 degrees when 30 degrees is perfectly fine for modern clothes.

Public Libraries subscribe to a service than gives free subscription to many newspapers and magazines, if you are a member of the library.
40p a go? Is that because you're stealing 2 toilet rolls?

A dual flush toilet uses about 2p of water, a single flush about 5p. So you'd have to be a complete bog roll demon to save 40p per person per visit
 
Of course knowing what you're paying is crucial - that's the whole point. Work out how much the car costs and then work out the running costs. Mixing everything up to give a monthly figure doesn't give any clarity - it's an infinite liability. Getting a car on finance is a liability you have to meet - so know what you're paying.

Comparing different vehicles at different ages is a very normal thing to do. Nearly everybody buying a used car does it. But you can of course compare them against new vehicles as well. That's where the best savings are to be had. This is the real world we're in - people buying things will make these calculations to see what they can afford and where the value lies.

As already stated - my stance is that you'll always pay more if you buy new. The more regularly you buy new or change to new the more you pay. It's oh so simple.
So, TCO then? Thought you were against that?

I've never advocated for monthly figures, they don't mean anything. The only reason I use them in examples is to give the people who do use them (frustratingly) something to work with to try and prise them from that way of thinking.

The only thing which matters is TCO, which is what I've been saying for years. So factor for depreciation, finance charges, fuel, tax, insurance, maintenance, tyres, reliability etc. To compare two cars you need to also compare like for like, or factor for that and how that is weighted, whether that's age, performance, features, safety, warranty, reliability etc.

You can compare a 10 year old ICE car with 100,000 miles on it with a 2 year old EV with 20,000 miles if you like, or even a brand new one, but it's not worth anything to anyone else, as nobody would be looking at those two markets at the same time. It's like me going to a shop and comparing a new football with a battered football which has been sat in my nana's garden with no leather on it since 1990. Sure, they're both footballs, and you could have a game with them, but that's where the similarity ends. There's a market for both, but not at the same time.

You will pay more if you buy new, in most circumstances, but not every time. When you do, that's the premium you pay for not having something which 1-10 people have owned and potentially damaged for 1-10 years. My point has always been a new car of one type which is far cheaper to run, will work out cheaper to run than a new one which is far more expensive to run. As this difference is so large, then in some cases a new car can be even cheaper than a car 2-3 years old, all depends on depreciation curves, cost of ownership and finance charges. A new car on 0% finance for 4 years is going to be cheaper than a 2 year old car 20% cheaper on 10% finance, just in pure finance charges alone. Add a £250 a month fuel and maintenance saving to that, and you can go further still.

One of the most expensive cars I've ever owned was a 1.6ltr corsa diesel, as it depreciated like a stone, it ended up costing more than three BMW's which followed it (which were ~twice the price). Same with the car I'm in now, it's lost about the same in depreciation as a car maybe half of it's value, and cost 1/3 as much to run. This makes it about the same to run and own as a car ~40% it's value. As this difference is so wide, I can even compare that to cars which were not new, which had already lost a fair chunk in depreciation. Just means you can drive newer and better for the same price, which is great.

All it is is maths, very, very, very basic maths, but you just need to know what factors to consider, and apply some sort of logic to any predictions/ assumptions, and know what variations to this can do (effectively like error bars in statistical analysis).
 
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So, TCO then? Thought you were against that?

I've never advocated for monthly figures, they don't mean anything. The only reason I use them in examples is to give the people who do use them (frustratingly) something to work with to try and prise them from that way of thinking.

The only thing which matters is TCO, which is what I've been saying for years. So factor for depreciation, finance charges, fuel, tax, insurance, maintenance, tyres, reliability etc. To compare two cars you need to also compare like for like, or factor for that and how that is weighted, whether that's age, performance, features, safety, warranty, reliability etc.

You can compare a 10 year old ICE car with 100,000 miles on it with a 2 year old EV with 20,000 miles if you like, or even a brand new one, but it's not worth anything to anyone else, as nobody would be looking at those two markets at the same time. It's like me going to a shop and comparing a new football with a battered football which has been sat in my nana's garden with no leather on it since 1990. Sure, they're both footballs, and you could have a game with them, but that's where the similarity ends. There's a market for both, but not at the same time.

You will pay more if you buy new, in most circumstances, but not every time. When you do, that's the premium you pay for not having something which 1-10 people have owned and potentially damaged for 1-10 years. My point has always been a new car of one type which is far cheaper to run, will work out cheaper to run than a new one which is far more expensive to run. As this difference is so large, then in some cases a new car can be even cheaper than a car 2-3 years old, all depends on depreciation curves, cost of ownership and finance charges. A new car on 0% finance for 4 years is going to be cheaper than a 2 year old car 20% cheaper on 10% finance, just in pure finance charges alone. Add a £250 a month fuel and maintenance saving to that, and you can go further still.

One of the most expensive cars I've ever owned was a 1.6ltr corsa diesel, as it depreciated like a stone, it ended up costing more than three BMW's which followed it (which were ~twice the price). Same with the car I'm in now, it's lost about the same in depreciation as a car maybe half of it's value, and cost 1/3 as much to run. This makes it about the same to run and own as a car ~40% it's value. As this difference is so wide, I can even compare that to cars which were not new, which had already lost a fair chunk in depreciation. Just means you can drive newer and better for the same price, which is great.

All it is is maths, very, very, very basic maths, but you just need to know what factors to consider, and apply some sort of logic to any predictions/ assumptions, and know what variations to this can do (effectively like error bars in statistical analysis).
Ah, schoolboy error with the Corsa - you've taken the hit whilst the next person has potentially got a bit of value. But of course, you've only taken the hit of depreciation because you've got the car at the wrong time and got rid of it at the wrong time. Even getting one of those things right would have saved you a lot of money.

My first car was a Honda Civic that I bought from a doctor who was emigrating. My strategy was to get Autotrader as soon as it was on the shelves and get in there first for the right vehicle. The Honda was priced wrong so I was straight in. I was also given £600 off because it had a scrape on the side. I sold the car a few years later for what I paid for it after putting 50k on the clock. My mistake was selling it - that particular engine was known to go half a million miles. Honda make the best petrol engines in the world.

With regards to TCO, it's fine - as long as you know what the vehicle on its own costs. That's a fixed cost - you're paying it no matter what. Some of the other stuff are variable costs which are going to be subject to change. Know what you actually know - not try to know what you don't know and mix it in with what you know 😆

Comparisons are fine - as long as they are real world decisions. Going to the extremes is disingenuous. You get lots of people comparing new vehicles with ones that are a few years old. Why? Because it makes sense for people who want to save money. That's always been my position. It's no secret that cars depreciate the fastest in their first few years. Sure, you'll always be able to pick a scenario or particular vehicle where you can play against that. But it's an exception to the rule. That's the mistake you made with the used/new car bubble recently.
 
Ah, schoolboy error with the Corsa - you've taken the hit whilst the next person has potentially got a bit of value. But of course, you've only taken the hit of depreciation because you've got the car at the wrong time and got rid of it at the wrong time. Even getting one of those things right would have saved you a lot of money.

My first car was a Honda Civic that I bought from a doctor who was emigrating. My strategy was to get Autotrader as soon as it was on the shelves and get in there first for the right vehicle. The Honda was priced wrong so I was straight in. I was also given £600 off because it had a scrape on the side. I sold the car a few years later for what I paid for it after putting 50k on the clock. My mistake was selling it - that particular engine was known to go half a million miles. Honda make the best petrol engines in the world.

With regards to TCO, it's fine - as long as you know what the vehicle on its own costs. That's a fixed cost - you're paying it no matter what. Some of the other stuff are variable costs which are going to be subject to change. Know what you actually know - not try to know what you don't know and mix it in with what you know 😆

Comparisons are fine - as long as they are real world decisions. Going to the extremes is disingenuous. You get lots of people comparing new vehicles with ones that are a few years old. Why? Because it makes sense for people who want to save money. That's always been my position. It's no secret that cars depreciate the fastest in their first few years. Sure, you'll always be able to pick a scenario or particular vehicle where you can play against that. But it's an exception to the rule. That's the mistake you made with the used/new car bubble recently.
I didn't buy the Corsa, or want it, I was effectively given it as part of the fleet, when I didn't manage the fleet. I pointed out how much a of a bad decision I thought it was (what was even worse was they bought two!), but was overruled, but later once proven correct I then ended up taking over running the fleet (as well as many other things). I said own, as it's part of the company I partially owned, but now half own, soon to be all of it. Effectively someone else was throwing my future money/ good work away, and I soon put a stop to that.

Buying a 2 year old car after such a hit might have been worth it for the guy who bought it off us, but I didn't want a new corsa, never mind an old one. I got a 5 Series, which was far nicer to drive, bigger, got ~20% off the new price and got 0%, so ended up a decent deal. Sure, worked out more TCO than a 2 year old corsa, but it was a far nicer car, which was important as I did a lot of miles, and it looked a bit better turning up to meetings in that, rather than a corsa. Things like that shouldn't matter, but they do. The point now though is, you can do that with an EV, but because the running costs are far, far cheaper, the better and nicer car which is brand new actually costs less than a worse car which is a few years older, it's great.

Honda do make good petrol engines, there's a reason they get used for most plant engines too.

Yeah fixed costs are fixed costs, which you define as that. Variable costs you can give parameters too, like ICE fuel will likely be £1.30-£1.80 with a 95% CI, that might get you 5-10 miles (or 13-35p per mile). Electric might be ~15-20p per kW 90% CI, that will get you ~4 miles (4-5p per mile). Sure electric might go to 30p again, but it's highly unlikely, but there are also times like now (and the last few months) where Octopus have paid me to charge my car up (or I can use solar). Don't think anyone's ever been paid to fill up their car with petrol, even when the oil producers were giving it away for free, and not many get petrol from the sky.

People wanting to save money and who buy a 4-10 year old ICE cars are not going to buy a new ICE car, the same as some EV driver who might buy a 4-10 year old leaf, they're not the market for a new EV, maybe not even one 1-2 years old. Compare cars of relatively the same age, if used, but if comparing new cars, then only compare with new cars, it's a different market. Sure, compare a new EV to a 3 year old ICE if you want, it's a different market, but if you're doing that, then you have to compare against a 3 year old EV too. This is where you're disingenuous, you don't even offer any like for like comparison, other than thinking all cars are the same. You may think that, but most dont.

Everyone knew there was a new and used car bubble (for ICE and EV), due to covid supply, it was always going to correct itself for that reason alone, and then even more when interest rates got jacked. Playing the market for how the market is, is the best thing anyone can do (if they understand their current position, then it's easier to understand future position). I've not made a mistake, I've driven 75k-100k cars for 2.5 years for 13-15k total outlay (better than forecast), not bad considering someone driving a 20 year old 20mpg car would spend that on fuel alone.

Anyway, bored of this now, again.
 
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