Labour Party purge/staff cuts.

SuperStu

Well-known member
@Lefty you crack me up with how one eyed you are.

If the left don't unite they're terrible villains but if it's Starmer picking fights with socialists or Kinnock with Militant it's fantastic.

For Corbyn and Foots elections it's the country rejecting them, when Kinnock loses two elections it's narrowly missing out.

If the left don't support the Labour leader they're too ideologically driven. If the right don't support the Labour leader they're right to do so and just altrustically trying to help us remove bad leaders quicker.

Fair enough though, that's your take on things. And let's be honest the left have been annihilated in the party over the last year and the moderates/centrist/right are completely dominant so if your assertions are correct Labour should be in gov sooner rather than later. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Lefty

Well-known member
What did Milne and co try to do?

Examples, with sources, would be a start.

The only real stupidity I remember from Corbyn's team was the Women's Pension payments and national Broadband rollout being added to the manifesto promises during the election process.

Both were sound (and fair) policies. It was more a timing issue.

 

Lefty

Well-known member
@Lefty you crack me up with how one eyed you are.

If the left don't unite they're terrible villains but if it's Starmer picking fights with socialists or Kinnock with Militant it's fantastic.

For Corbyn and Foots elections it's the country rejecting them, when Kinnock loses two elections it's narrowly missing out.

Fair enough though, that's your take on things. And let's be honest the left have been annihilated in the party over the last year and the moderates/centrist/right are completely dominant so if your assertions are correct Labour should be in gov sooner rather than later. 🤷‍♂️

Thatcher was incredibly unpopular. The Cameron/May/Johnson regimes were also unpopular. How can you possibly take from the utter trouncing of the far Left's alternatives to those regimes that Labour should continue repeating this stupidity. The Party has to appear moderate, to appeal to the centre. It can be centre left because although we are small c conservative, we are also decent and fair minded and fairness, equality and decency are what the centre left are about. The far left have a part to play, there are idea's they can add, but they can't lead. They are too incompetent and too ideologically driven to be practical.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Thatcher was incredibly unpopular.

Yet she beat centrist Labour Kinnock. As did Major.

The Cameron/May/Johnson regimes were also unpopular.

Yet Cameron beat centrist Miliband. May had the highest net favourability ratings of any PM for decades before Corbyn's 2017 election against her. Johnson regularly has higher net favourability ratings than centrist Starmer.

The far left have a part to play, there are idea's they can add, but they can't lead.

Ideas to add? At the start of the thread you were saying Starmer has to chase the left out of the party?

They are too incompetent

I think this is a daft point tbh. It's a personal attribute you can't just attach it to everyone who has a particular policy outlook.

It's even dafter to come out with this the day after the NEC meeting reveals centrist Starmer's managed to blow the £13m cash reserves the previous left wing leadership had built up in the party and now has to sack a load of staff. Hardly a demonstration of some inate competence is it?
 

Same_as_before

Well-known member
Kinnock did something spectacularly stupid, he had a we have won party days before the ejection. People are fickle they said 'oh have you'

Blair knew how to win. I think Starmer does, right now I would give him a 4, Corbyn was Clueless.
 

BlindBoyGrunt

Well-known member
I don't think Corbyn is an anti-semite personally, but some around him are so anti Israel (whose treatment of Palestinians is indeed disgraceful) that they certainly appeared so and the messaging from Corbyn fostered this, gave tacit approval and his leadership or lack of it led to many Jewish people leaving the party and many in the public to believe the Corbynites to be anti-semitic.

Technical arguments otherwise are irrelevant. The country gave it's verdict and it has resulted in an 80 seat majority for the most right wing, ideological, incompetent, government in UK history. That is the reality. It is fact. Stop denying reality and face it.

The left need to understand the mindset of the country.
This acceptance of the conflation of anti-Semitism with anti Israeli policy is breathtaking. In 2020 the number of UN resolutions against Israel was 17, almost three times the number against the rest of the world combined. To not be appalled by the way Palestinians are treated by Israel isn't just non Labour, it is almost non human. To contest Israeli policy should be a matter of course not a question of how it will appear on the political stage. The left need to influence the mindset of the country, not bend to it. If your ambition is not to change minds then you should not be called a political party at all.

I am shocked that the supporters of Starmer on this thread can't even bring themselves to criticise the policy of left wing jews being purged from the party for the sin of sympathising with the Palestinian cause. Not one. Is anti-left-wing-Judaism not anti-Semitism now?
 

Lefty

Well-known member
Kinnock did something spectacularly stupid, he had a we have won party days before the ejection. People are fickle they said 'oh have you'

Blair knew how to win. I think Starmer does, right now I would give him a 4, Corbyn was Clueless.

Combined with Major's soap box tactic. Major was a bit of an anomaly for a Tory. He was a decent man from very humble working class origins. Enough of the electorate were prepared to give the Tories a chance under him, once they had ditched Thatcher and the poll tax. They weren't quite prepared to trust Labour despite all the work Kinnock had done to cast off the image and damage of the far left, Militant and the bitter infighting. Kinnock also wasn't as likeable.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
Wasn't clueless enough to let the party go bust on his watch though was he? 🤷‍♂️

Funding is a problem Starmer is inheriting from the changes Ed Miliband made, but Blair managed it and Starmer may again once the Party is electable again.

It isn't just the far left leaving because the don't like Starmer, A lot of people saw Corbyn as a hero and saviour, were prepared to give him a chance. He and his little inner circle failed them spectacularly and lost the party support.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
This acceptance of the conflation of anti-Semitism with anti Israeli policy is breathtaking. In 2020 the number of UN resolutions against Israel was 17, almost three times the number against the rest of the world combined. To not be appalled by the way Palestinians are treated by Israel isn't just non Labour, it is almost non human. To contest Israeli policy should be a matter of course not a question of how it will appear on the political stage. The left need to influence the mindset of the country, not bend to it. If your ambition is not to change minds then you should not be called a political party at all.

I am shocked that the supporters of Starmer on this thread can't even bring themselves to criticise the policy of left wing jews being purged from the party for the sin of sympathising with the Palestinian cause. Not one. Is anti-left-wing-Judaism not anti-Semitism now?

I am critical of Israel and have long been so.

It doesn't matter. You can argue all you want, but what mattered was perception and Corbyn and his inner circle handling of it was utterly incompetent and led to widespread belief with the electorate that he and the controlling faction were antisemitic and racist. Some of them were.

Starmer has to address that first and foremost.

He is getting a lot of behind the scenes appointments right. Putting the right people, smart people living in the now rather than fools still living in the 1970's.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
Funding is a problem Starmer is inheriting from the changes Ed Miliband made

No, funding was a big strength Starmer inherited from Corbyn.

but Blair managed it

Blair left the party in heaps of debt.

It isn't just the far left leaving because the don't like Starmer, A lot of people saw Corbyn as a hero and saviour, were prepared to give him a chance. He and his little inner circle failed them spectacularly and lost the party support.

:ROFLMAO: Brilliant. So Corbyn, despite being kicked out of the party about 9 months ago, is to blame for people ending their membership now?

Come on Lefty, there's no shame in admitting Starmer isn't a perfect individual. If the party's finances are as bad as reported he's clearly not as good a leader as Corbyn was in at least that one regard.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
Yet Cameron beat centrist Miliband. May had the highest net favourability ratings of any PM for decades before Corbyn's 2017 election against her. Johnson regularly has higher net favourability ratings than centrist Starmer.

Cameron was seen as centrist and indeed he had moved the Tories to the centre in many respects. Miliband was actually seen as moving Labour to the left of Blair and brown.

Johnson is the PM in a national crisis, with a lot of personal appeal and among the Tories he is the seen as a winner. You shouldn't surprised at favourable ratings.

Starmer hasn't made an impact, but he has inherited a bad hand that needs work behind the scenes regarding the party. Being in opposition in a largely lockdowned country during a national crisis demanding everyone pull together is not an easy situation to become popular in.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
Come on Lefty, there's no shame in admitting Starmer isn't a perfect individual. If the party's finances are as bad as reported he's clearly not as good a leader as Corbyn was in at least that one regard.

Starmer isn't perfect and he has made mistakes. He might be electable if the party gets into shape.

Corbyn was good for fundraising, as thousands flocked to him based on the promise they thought he offered. He didn't deliver and frankly was really disappointing.
 

Lefty

Well-known member
Are you suggesting the current leadership shows competence to the electorate?

We are in a unique situation. It is way too soon to judge, but the behind the scenes appointments look good and that is the foundation.

Anyway, I was commenting on the competence of Corbyn and the people he had around him. They were utterly incompetent.

Yet Cameron beat centrist Miliband. May had the highest net favourability ratings of any PM for decades before Corbyn's 2017 election against her. Johnson regularly has higher net favourability ratings than centrist Starmer.

May was popular to begin with, but that all changed when she did that disgraceful u-turn and decided to hold an election. The public, especially Remainers who voted tactically, decided to punish her hubris. Corbyn campaigned well and was given a fairer crack of the whip by the media under purdah and his own MP's once in election mode (and thereafter). It shouldn't be underestimated how much support was lent him in order to oppose May and her hard Brexit however, support he and Milne turned away with their rhetoric and arrogance.
 

Billyzin

Well-known member
There should indeed, but they can't lead.

Also, what we saw when Milne took over was a lot of purging and petty revenge against the centre and that wasn't right either.
I ended my Labour party membership the Day Starmer became leader.

I'll return when Labour becomes a socialist party again.
 

jam69

Well-known member
Regardless of where you stand on the left starmer is going to stand as leader in the next election. If you want to see the back of this despicable morally corrupt government then you will have to grin and bare it . I would rather have a leadership closer to the left buy will take anything over the tories.
We need to win first then hopefully implement some fairer policies from the left that work and show people socialism does work for the vast majority
 

Muttley

Well-known member
The last election under Corbyn was an absolute car crash. The initial manifesto was costed and well presented but as the campaign went on whenever someone asked about things not mentioned in the manifesto it was simply added in. "What about the [insert minority interest here]?"

"Yes, we'll fund them and their children and put unicorn sparkles in everyone's corn flakes"

Dreadful. The right of the party didn't need to do any undermining the campaigning was ridiculous. And I liked Corbyn, I liked his honesty. But he was unable to lead, he made an awful mess of it. A bit like Chuba Akpom with the goal empty in front of him tripping over his own laces. But it is also true that he had to struggle against a torrent of misinformation and bias from even the BBC. Johnson got a very easy ride from Kuenssberg and many others (when he wasn't hiding in fridges).

The most important thing to recognise is that for the good of the country, for the good of our children and grand children we must get the Tories out. And when that is done we must amend the electoral system to make it fairer and assure that they can never again dominate the HoC with a minority vote.
 

GazC_MFC

Well-known member
Starmer isn't perfect and he has made mistakes. He might be electable if the party gets into shape.

Corbyn was good for fundraising, as thousands flocked to him based on the promise they thought he offered. He didn't deliver and frankly was really disappointing.
He wasn’t given a chance to deliver on his promise
 
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