Keir Starmer

r00fie1 said:
They are obviously a big part of the equation - so cant be ignored.
Its not about me "trusting" the Palestinian resistance, but understanding why it exists - and how Israel assisted its formation in the first place.
That article and accompaning research was posted to facilitate and inform - using reliable sources.
Its up to others to decide what they believe and who they trust.(y)
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All well and good. As long as you accept that people will have different opinions on the matter.
However strongly you yourself support Hamas it is surely understandable that others don't feel the same way. It is possible to support the Palestine resistance without supporting some of the actions taken by Hamas.
Scrote said:
About as trustworthy as Boris Johnson, Kier Starmer and Likud. What is there to worry about..?
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Yeah, exactly. I don't trust any of them.
 
Rofesleg said:
All well and good. As long as you accept that people will have different opinions on the matter.
However strongly you yourself support Hamas it is surely understandable that others don't feel the same way. It is possible to support the Palestine resistance without supporting some of the actions taken by Hamas.

Yeah, exactly. I don't trust any of them.
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I don't think anyone on here has even vaguely suggested they have any support for Hamas.

Understanding why the world is how it is and why groups act as they do isn't giving support.

As far as I'm concerned, both Hamas and Likud are happy with how this has all turned out. Hamas can use Gaza to point the finger at Israel and Israel can point the finger at Hamas whilst clearing out Gaza. Win win for two sets of lunatics.

As with many politicians in the US and UK, they'll happily watch the world burn to get what they want.
 
www.newarab.com

Gaza hospital strike: Is Israeli audio proof disinformation?

Experts have expressed doubt after Israel released a recording allegedly featuring two Hamas operatives discussing Palestinian Islamic Jihad's potential responsibility for the al-Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital massacre.
www.newarab.com www.newarab.com


www.reuters.com

Fact Check: Fake audio added to CNN video of Israel-Hamas war coverage

Footage showing CNN journalists taking shelter from rockets near the Israel-Gaza border has been altered to include a fabricated voiceover directing them to stage their coverage.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Scrote said:
I don't think anyone on here has even vaguely suggested they have any support for Hamas.

Understanding why the world is how it is and why groups act as they do isn't giving support.
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There's a fine line between pasting excerpts from their principles, policies & doctrines in order to educate people and doing so in order to promote or support their cause.
 
Rofesleg said:
There's a fine line between pasting excerpts from their principles, policies & doctrines in order to educate people and doing so in order to promote or support their cause.
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People make their own minds up.
You can read the Bible and recite parables and phrases to highlight its meaning.
You can quote the Communist Manifesto in order to explain its historical context.
You can quote Mein Kampf and locate its place in the ideology of European history.
Unless people dig and do the research, they can swallow what they are spoonfed and believe it if they wish.
Good journalism isnt about conveying the message, it is about understanding the myths and agenda behind the message.

But it doesnt make someone a Christian, A Communist or a Fascist.
Like many - I`ve read the latter two books and large chunks of the Bible, but it doesnt mean I believe in them.

Its not about promoting a "cause": its about understanding what is and why it is.
 
r00fie1 said:
www.newarab.com

Gaza hospital strike: Is Israeli audio proof disinformation?

Experts have expressed doubt after Israel released a recording allegedly featuring two Hamas operatives discussing Palestinian Islamic Jihad's potential responsibility for the al-Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital massacre.
www.newarab.com www.newarab.com


www.reuters.com

Fact Check: Fake audio added to CNN video of Israel-Hamas war coverage

Footage showing CNN journalists taking shelter from rockets near the Israel-Gaza border has been altered to include a fabricated voiceover directing them to stage their coverage.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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I thought your debunked comment was about the 'I killed ten' audio none of which are debunked by the sources you quote.
 
equaliser said:
Even though Johnson is my most loathed Tory ever, even he doesn't come into the same category as Hamas killers. Come on. Like I say elsewhere, they are murderous religious nutters and to hang your hat on them as some kind of freedom fighters is naive. Listen to the phone call in the link below.
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It's hard not to describe them as 'freedom fighters' when they are literally fighting for their freedom. The fact they have other items on the agenda doesn't make that one redundant. The whole murderous jihad thing is why no-one is backing them, either on here, or internationally.

equaliser said:
Likud, yes, they are a loathsome lot also, and also sustained in power by religious nutters prepared to murder. Jonathan Freedland nails it in today's Guardian. Both Hamas and Netanyahu must be removed for peace to prevail.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/17/hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-ceasefire
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1finny said:
This is worth pondering

www.theguardian.com

Too many taking sides in this conflict miss the true nature of Hamas – and Netanyahu | Jonathan Freedland

Both those calling for a ceasefire and those opposing it are making assumptions that don’t stack up, says Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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That's a good article which explains the both-sides-bad-ism pretty well.

Up until relatively recently, Israel was always portrayed as a progressive western state. It's good to see that narrative being challenged as it should be under the current Israeli government.
 
Jabalia - a refugee camp. 80 dead, 32 of one family. Dispute the numbers? Maybe. Dispute the images? You can't.

Anyone who dresses this up as self defence is in la-la land. Its disgusting, horrific, abhorrent - & western governments that look on, and indeed support these actions, will forever be on the wrong side of history.
 
r00fie1 said:
People make their own minds up.
You can read the Bible and recite parables and phrases to highlight its meaning.
You can quote the Communist Manifesto in order to explain its historical context.
You can quote Mein Kampf and locate its place in the ideology of European history.
Unless people dig and do the research, they can swallow what they are spoonfed and believe it if they wish.
Good journalism isnt about conveying the message, it is about understanding the myths and agenda behind the message.

But it doesnt make someone a Christian, A Communist or a Fascist.
Like many - I`ve read the latter two books and large chunks of the Bible, but it doesnt mean I believe in them.

Its not about promoting a "cause": its about understanding what is and why it is.
Click to expand...
It seems as though you are only trying to help us understand one side of the story though Roofie. And showing one side as the good guys and the other as the baddies.
You must disagree with some of the actions Hamas have taken surely?
 
Scrote said:
The whole murderous jihad thing is why no-one is backing them, either on here, or internationally.
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Israel would argue that calling for a ceasefire is backing them, because it allows them to regroup and rearm. I agree to a large extent the Palestinian people have been backed into a corner: Israel's many outrages can't help but prompt an armed reaction. But my original point on this thread was to say I understood why Keir Starmer - along with most Western Governments - wasn't insisting on a ceasefire.
The reason is "the whole murderous jihad thing", as you call it: an incursion so depraved it was always going to receive - and justify - a vengeful response.

I can see both sides. The Gazan death toll is horrific, unbearable. Similarly, the pain of the Israelis is something, as I've said, that we can't fully imagine. Hamas may have right on their side, but they have taken just war and turned it into an exemplary form of cruelty that is intolerable (see below). Israel has a right to destroy them.

 
Millbrook said:
I thought your debunked comment was about the 'I killed ten' audio none of which are debunked by the sources you quote.
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Yes.

If you follow all the links I posted - not just the one you quote.

I politely suggest you keep up to date using more varied platforms to keep up with whats happening and maybe trust less - challenge yourself.

I cant be your go-to channel to try and convince or otherwise your opinion, but you can do it for yourself.

If you feel inclined to park the MSN - whether you think you may agree or not - I find the following useful for up to date informaton and cross-checkable verifiable sources. Takes some time, but its not difficult to distinguish fact from fiction. If thats what you want to do.

Good hunting.

The Palestinian Chronicle.
Asa Winstanley
The Electronic Intafada
International Middle East Media Network
Palestine Online
Times of Gaza
Quds news network
New Arab New Network
Tony Greenstein
Jewish Voice for Labour
Jewish Voice for Peace
Jewish Socialists
Jews Against Genocide
Middle East Eye
Al Jazeera English
Press TV Live
Haaretz Daily
Matt Kennard
Gideon Levy
B`Tselem
The Jerusalem Post
5 Pillars
Peter Obourne
John Pilger
Ali Abunima
Declassified UK

(y)
 
equaliser said:
Israel would argue that calling for a ceasefire is backing them, because it allows them to regroup and rearm. I agree to a large extent the Palestinian people have been backed into a corner: Israel's many outrages can't help but prompt an armed reaction. But my original point on this thread was to say I understood why Keir Starmer - along with most Western Governments - wasn't insisting on a ceasefire.
The reason is "the whole murderous jihad thing", as you call it: an incursion so depraved it was always going to receive - and justify - a vengeful response.

I can see both sides. The Gazan death toll is horrific, unbearable. Similarly, the pain of the Israelis is something, as I've said, that we can't fully imagine. Hamas may have right on their side, but they have taken just war and turned it into an exemplary form of cruelty that is intolerable (see below). Israel has a right to destroy them.

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Starmers biggest financial backers are the Israeli`s and he claims he is a "proud zionist".
There is no hiding from that.
He supports genocide at any price.
 
equaliser said:
Israel would argue that calling for a ceasefire is backing them, because it allows them to regroup and rearm. I agree to a large extent the Palestinian people have been backed into a corner: Israel's many outrages can't help but prompt an armed reaction. But my original point on this thread was to say I understood why Keir Starmer - along with most Western Governments - wasn't insisting on a ceasefire.
The reason is "the whole murderous jihad thing", as you call it: an incursion so depraved it was always going to receive - and justify - a vengeful response.

I can see both sides. The Gazan death toll is horrific, unbearable. Similarly, the pain of the Israelis is something, as I've said, that we can't fully imagine. Hamas may have right on their side, but they have taken just war and turned it into an exemplary form of cruelty that is intolerable (see below). Israel has a right to destroy them.

Click to expand...
1700350528422.png
www.middleeasteye.net

Middle East Eye: News, Opinion, and Analysis

Latest news, opinion, video and analysis with a focus on the Middle East and wider region.
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
 
equaliser said:
Israel would argue that calling for a ceasefire is backing them, because it allows them to regroup and rearm. I agree to a large extent the Palestinian people have been backed into a corner: Israel's many outrages can't help but prompt an armed reaction. But my original point on this thread was to say I understood why Keir Starmer - along with most Western Governments - wasn't insisting on a ceasefire.
The reason is "the whole murderous jihad thing", as you call it: an incursion so depraved it was always going to receive - and justify - a vengeful response.

I can see both sides. The Gazan death toll is horrific, unbearable. Similarly, the pain of the Israelis is something, as I've said, that we can't fully imagine. Hamas may have right on their side, but they have taken just war and turned it into an exemplary form of cruelty that is intolerable (see below). Israel has a right to destroy them.
Click to expand...
"Regroup and rearm" - the former, maybe. The latter - how? Israel can (and has) locked Gaza down. Other than some very low-level smuggling. how are Hamas going to rearm? It's just not realistic.

Israel is an occupying power. Under international law they don't get the luxury of "a vengeful response" when that includes murdering innocent civilians.

Israel has a right to destroy Hamas. They have no right to destroy Gaza or Palestinian civilians.

Compare and contrast with the Ukraine war where the Ukrainians are doing everything possible to minimise collateral damage. If Israel wanted to they could work in the same way using the same (or better) technology. What they are doing is barbaric. It's designed to ensure there is no peace now nor in the future.

Starmer is a coward for not standing up and saying so.
 
r00fie1 said:
View attachment 67329
www.middleeasteye.net

Middle East Eye: News, Opinion, and Analysis

Latest news, opinion, video and analysis with a focus on the Middle East and wider region.
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
Click to expand...
Regardless of the history it is a sh1tshow over there.
Roofie, what are your personal views regarding the attacks on 7th October?

Were they the justifiable action of a democratically elected party fighting for freedom.
Or....
An act of terror designed to provoke a response leading to war and the inevitable death of thousands.
Or....
Something else completely?

In my opinion Hamas have set back the Palestinian cause a hundred years. Maybe that was the intention?
The Israeli response was entirely predictable so you can only assume Hamas expected it and wanted it. Which suggests they are happy to sacrifice thousands of their own people.

Were they hoping to trigger a war in the whole Middle Eastern region?
It just doesn't seem like the action of level headed, reasonable leaders.
 
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