Israeli hostages taken in Gaza

[atypical_boro]

What a shame Alan Johnson, who was put in charge of the Labour Remain campaign, phoned it in eh? Between that and the PLP revolt starting the day after the referendum results were announced its clear Labours centrist MPs saw brexit as a price worth paying to undermine the leadership at the time.

He was his own downfall unfortunately, and it cost him the red wall. https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance

 

[Scrote]

No point looking backwards now but ultimately Brexit wouldn't have happened if there was a coordinated Remain message and campaign from Labour.

Brexit was a disaster waiting to happen as soon as MPs voted to allow the referendum.

However, the coordination of Labour's response fell to the Shadow Brexit Minister (Starmer) and the Labour Remain spokesperson (Alan Johnson).

Dereliction of duty from the both of them.

 

[atypical_boro]

Brexit was a disaster waiting to happen as soon as MPs voted to allow the referendum.

However, the coordination of Labour's response fell to the Shadow Brexit Minister (Starmer) and the Labour Remain spokesperson (Alan Johnson).

Dereliction of duty from the both of them.

Why was the leader's consistently changing stance not a contributing factor?

 

[Alzi]

Brexit was a disaster waiting to happen as soon as MPs voted to allow the referendum.

However, the coordination of Labour's response fell to the Shadow Brexit Minister (Starmer) and the Labour Remain spokesperson (Alan Johnson).

Dereliction of duty from the both of them.

Whilst I agree with most of your points, ultimately the buck stops at the top. Corbyn has to take ultimate responsibility for the ineffective campaign and his position was unclear at best.

 

[Scrote]

Why was the leader's consistently changing stance not a contributing factor?

His stance was consistent throughout. Where (from the referendum being announced) do you think his stance changed?

Whilst I agree with most of your points, ultimately the buck stops at the top. Corbyn has to take ultimate responsibility for the ineffective campaign and his position was unclear at best.

How was his position unclear? What did he say that made you unsure of his opinion?

 

[atypical_boro]

His stance was consistent throughout. Where (from the referendum being announced) do you think his stance changed?

Have you read that fact-check above?

And if you're saying his message was consistent, the red wall would strongly disagree with you.

 

[Alzi]

His stance was consistent throughout. Where (from the referendum being announced) do you think his stance changed?


How was his position unclear? What did he say that made you unsure of his opinion?

If you mean he was consistently indifferent I would agree. We all know he is a Euroskeptic and it showed.

 

[atypical_boro]

If you mean he was consistently indifferent I would agree. We all know he is a Euroskeptic and it showed.

And we knew that from all the things he said before the referendum, which still counted.

 

[SuperStu]

Have you read that fact-check above?

And if you're saying his message was consistent, the red wall would strongly disagree with you.

The fact check is talking about the policy in the run up to the 2019 election. The referendum campaign had already been and gone by then.

 

[Boroboyyo]

I have no idea if you are serious, but it isn’t a big stretch as some might think imho. Hamas backed by Iran, backed by Russia, Israel supported by the West.

Cracks appearing in the West and USA over funding and weaponising Ukraine. More conflict elsewhere to cause mayhem and USA will be sending Navy and military personnel to the region, stretches military resources elsewhere temporarily, cause more ordinary people to seek refuge in Europe, some of which may even be a cover for some state activist cells rather than refugees, the more the Middle East and Africa is destabilised, the more refugees will seek better lives elsewhere, the more pressure on Europe and its economies the more hope of starting to destabilise and fracture alliances from within both economically and politically.

My counter point to that is if Israel finds out Russia has played a part in this , then the stubbornly neutral stance Israel has taken will go out of the window regarding Ukraine . Russia and Israel have had relatively cordial relations lately , they effectively end it if they have helped with this . Once Israel takes Gaza and can divert its attention elsewhere, that could result in technology sharing and weapon transfer to Ukraine . Not saying it will, but it could .

If Iran is also involved in this and is dragged into a war , that also means less weapon shipments to Russia for invading Ukraine

The Russians could have played a part here, but it means they will have put all their eggs in the basket of Iran

 

[atypical_boro]

The fact check is talking about the policy in the run up to the 2019 election. The referendum campaign had already been and gone by then.

But I was replying to your point about the PLP bringing him down "the day after the referendum results" and accepting Brexit as the price to pay. No one forced him to keep changing his approach on Brexit between 2016-2019, and haemorrhaging red wall votes. Can't really blame Alan Johnson or the rest of the PLP for that.

 

[The Ruthsayer]

I do not get this.

Obviously, attacking civilians is a crime against humanity. This is barbaric.

The thing is that the Israeli government was subject to to mass protests from Israelis and the chances are a more left leaning government would have ended up in power instead of the hard right one they have now.
This attack will give this Israeli government everything they need, including global international support, to wipe out any perceived risk and any revenge they see fit to inflict. This will take the Palestinian cause back decades.
I just dont get it. what were Hamas hoping to achieve other than mindless slaughter of innocents? Did they want a solution or just war? Surely fellow Arabs will condemn what Hamas has done and they will lose a lot of their own support. Is it just that hardliners on both sides dont want a compromise of the two state solution? Is Iran behind all of this? Is this Russia creating a diversion tactic?
I really feel for ordinary Palestinians and Israelis. This is a war none of them wanted and is being waged by terrorists in their name.

From what I’ve read, the cause was the potential rapprochement between KSA (aka The Headchoppers) and Israel, thus completely isolating Iran.

 

[newusername]

Black September - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is why the Egyptians don’t want them . The Palestinians refugees try and overthrow the host governments and monarchy when they’re allowed in . Egypt hates Israel , but they hate Palestine too . I’m not at all surprised the Egyptians have told them to **** off

This isn’t even about land for lots of Muslims . This is plainly because many of these Muslims view Jews in the same way hitler did, that they should be wiped off the face of the earth

Do you mean apart from 150,000 as refugees in Egypt?

 

[SuperStu]

But I was replying to your point about the PLP bringing him down "the day after the referendum results" and accepting Brexit as the price to pay. No one forced him to keep changing his approach on Brexit between 2016-2019, and haemorrhaging red wall votes. Can't really blame Alan Johnson or the rest of the PLP for that.

I think whatever point you're making is a confused one.

The Labour PLP thought Brexit was worth it clearly because of their actions in the run up to and in the days after the referendum in 2016. That has nothing to do with whatever Corbyns policy was 3 years later. Unless your interpretation of Alzis original remark was that we'd never have brexited if Labours campaigning in 2019 had been more coordinated, regardless of the referendum result?

 

[atypical_boro]

I think whatever point you're making is a confused one.

The Labour PLP thought Brexit was worth it clearly because of their actions in the run up to and in the days after the referendum. That has nothing to do with whatever Corbyns policy was 3 years later.

Ok, I think your original point came across a little ambiguous but I now see what you're saying.

I'm not sure the 'revolt' against Corbyn really gathered pace until after the 2017 election though did it? So the point I am making, and this really is the only point (and hopefully doesn't come across as confused), is that Corbyn's inconsistent stance on the Brexit referendum results, as leader, are what allowed him to lose his relationship with the red wall (and lose so many votes 2017-2019).

Throw in his historical stubbornness to condemn the actions of Hamas/Hezbollah (which he has again done today, hence the reason it is being discussed) and you have the reason he was never PM.

 

[Boroboyyo]

Do you mean apart from 150,000 as refugees in Egypt?

Care to explain why the hell the Egyptians have closed the borders to them then ?

They have instigated civil wars in Jordan and Lebanon .

 

[SuperStu]

I'm not sure the 'revolt' against Corbyn really gathered pace until after the 2017 election though did it?

The referendum was Thursday 23 June 2016.

We knew the result on the morning of Friday 24 June. Cameron announced his resignation that morning.

Hilary Benn resigned/was sacked on the Saturday morning, 25 June. This is followed by 44 Labour MPs resigning from roles in as many hours.

By Tuesday 28 June, there's been a no confidence vote among the PLP, and the party are briefing the media there'll be a leadership election.

Ultimately Corbyn won the leadership contest and stayed in, obviously.

But yes the revolt against him was immediate after the referendum result. So much so that it would seem to me a pretty safe assumption that Labour MPs had planned for how they would use leave winning to get rid of Corbyn.

 

[atypical_boro]

The referendum was Thursday 23 June 2016.

We knew the result on the morning of Friday 24 June. Cameron announced his resignation that morning.

Hilary Benn resigned/was sacked on the Saturday morning, 25 June. This is followed by 44 Labour MPs resigning from roles in as many hours.

By Tuesday 28 June, there's been a no confidence vote among the PLP, and the party are briefing the media there'll be a leadership election.

Ultimately Corbyn won the leadership contest and stayed in, obviously.

But yes the revolt against him was immediate after the referendum result. So much so that it would seem to me a pretty safe assumption that Labour MPs had planned for how they would use leave winning to get rid of Corbyn.

Fair enough, I wouldn't dispute that, but in spite of that he seemed to perform well in 2017, before Brexit had reached the ultra-contentious levels it had by 2019. I still feel that a stronger commitment to a particular stance could have saved him. We may have had a hung parliament or whatever.

 

[jonny_greenings_sock]

How the hell has this become a Corbyn thread.

I do think he’s showing why he’s unelectable though. So far out of touch with normal sentiment, it’s embarrassing.

 

[newusername]

Care to explain why the hell the Egyptians have closed the borders to them then ?

They have instigated civil wars in Jordan and Lebanon .

Egypt receives c.$1.5bn in aid from the US every year, about 1/3 of the amount given to Israel by the US each year.
Biden/US administration threatens to withold 25% of the aid each year unless they reconfirm their support for anti-terrorism in the middle east.
Israel sees the blockade & secure border between Gaza & Egypt as being essential for their security, hence if Egypt wants the full amount they have to keep the border closed.