Hight Court rules killing of four IRA members was not justified

[Redwurzel]

I do believe NI should be part of the UK, but believe the Catholic communities should have exactly the same rights as the Protestant communities.

The IRA believed in a United Ireland and believed the UK had no right to rule in the island of Ireland after 1922.

Before 1922 the island of Ireland had always been one country. NI was created to protect the Protestant communities in the North of Irleand who considered themselves more British than Irish. The border was drawn to divide predominately Cathlolic Ireland from Protestant Ireland.

It would have been interesting to have vote in the 1970s across the whole of the island of Ireland to see what everyone on the Island really wanted.

 

[Lightweight]

As I said, there are many different theories as to why they were there that day. I'd recommend the book 'Charlie One' by Sean Hartnett, a former British soldier. In it he claims that the two of them were attached to The Det, an undercover surveillance unit.

I've got to say, after reading up on it this theory does seem plausible. But I guess we'll never know the truth for sure.

14 Intelligence Company | The Det

Unit Profile of 14 intelligence company, or the Det - its operations, selection and training.

www.eliteukforces.info

100% were not anything to do the Det. I explained what happened in post 55 and 52. 9mm browning were the personal weapon of every technician who carried the out role. Sometimes the simplest explanation for events is the correct one. You can choose to believe someone doing the same role in Armagh at the same time and knew one of them who find yourself down a rabbit hole.

 

[Redwurzel]

You clearly know sweet FA about ops in Northern Ireland

Outside of the green army units, all SAS and 14th Det units operated in plain clothes and didn’t leave the barracks without a pistol and two extra mags as a minimum.

Civilian cars were used and changed every couple of weeks and usually had a sten or later an MP5 hidden in them.

Which Unit(s) did the two men belong to?

I have assumed they were what most people would call normal army units i.e not SAS

 

[Lightweight]

You clearly know sweet FA about ops in Northern Ireland

Outside of the green army units, all SAS and 14th Det units operated in plain clothes and didn’t leave the barracks without a pistol and two extra mags as a minimum.

Civilian cars were used and changed every couple of weeks and usually had a sten or later an MP5 hidden in them.

I served 2 years across there doing the same role and wore civies, drove vans and cars and carried 9mm browning each time I left barracks repairing fixed Telecommunications. Lots of roles used this to prevents large scale deployment of troops to carry out tasks.

 

[FishofContemplation]

The Troubles in NI could have been avoided if the Catholic communities were treated as equals. They were not in Northern Ireland right from its creation (1922) , they were treated as the enemy within and as such heavily discriminated against. This created a very fertile breeding ground for the Repulican extremists like the Provisional IRA.

As with so much of the story of Ireland this is both true and capable of being spun from an alternative perspective. Because while the Catholic population of the six counties was oppressed it wasn’t oppressed to the point where it stopped growing. Whereas the Protestant population of the 26 county state, which stood in excess of 10% at partition and in excess of 25% in South Ulster, has largely disappeared, apart from the middle class CoI, Trinity College and IRFU elite in Dublin. We have a word for that sort of thing when Donald Trump proposes it.

 

[Lightweight]

Which Unit(s) did the two men belong to?

I have assumed they were what most people would call normal army units i.e not SAS

Royal Corps of Signals.

 

[Redwurzel]

It was one of a sequence of events which occurred within a 14 day period, starting with the SAS killing of the 3 in Gibraltar. Michael Stone then attacked the funeral and killed 3. One of those he killed was IRA man Kevin Brady. The two corporals turned up at his funeral and initially the crowd had assumed they were two loyalists looking to carry out a repeat attack. The IRA claimed that they'd searched them and had found ID on one of the soliders which mentioned Herford, and they'd misread is as Hereford and believed that they were SAS. If that's true then I'd imagine they were killed in revenge for the 3 in Gibraltar.

I developed a morbid fascination with this after watching the BBC Funeral Murders documentary. I spoke to Harry Maguire years ago, one of the men jailed for the killings. Incredibly he's now director of a restorative justice organisation in Belfast. I did ask him about the incident but unsurprisingly he told me not to get into it. He was fairly amicable despite me being honest about my own feelings on what happened and he said he believes in reconciliation wholeheartedly and invited me to travel across to Belfast. When I asked him whether he had any regrets over spending time in prison his respsonse was "No, who wouldn't stand up against invaders?". It was then that I cut off contact with him.

PB

Genuine question - why would two British Army corporals turn up at the funeral of a IRA man? surely it was dangerous to do so. My family members who served in NI were wary about leaving their barracks.

I can believe the Herford/Hereford mistake - its happend on here before. I think Herford is a smallish British base in Germany while Hereford is the HQ of the SAS and well known to IRA.

Where the second and third victims of Michael Stone ordinary family members/friends attending his funeral? (hence feelings were high)

edit - Just checked and Michael Stone injured 30 mourners as well as killing three - he was in his own way completing random killings of anyone attending the funeral. The IRA man he killed was not known to him as a IRA member. I was actaully caught by some of the moruners and I am amazed he was not beaten to death, in his own words he was rescued by the RUC and taken away in one fo their vans.

 

[Redwurzel]

Royal Corps of Signals.

Genuine question - Would they always carry pistols in NI, say when off duty?

 

[Lightweight]

Genuine question - Would they always carry pistols in NI, say when off duty?

The role was an on call repair team ( 4 days on main call, 4 days on standby and 4 days off). You had an overlap of 8 days with the person taking over your role and during that time you might not have any call-outs ( which made it an easy role at the time). You were expected to try and visit every site with your opo when carrying out the handover to familiarise them with each setup, and so you used to sign out you weapons from the armoury and radio from the comms det ( no questions ever asking where you were going or would return) and wander around your sites if you had no faults.
After this incident you had to inform the guard room where you were going they would brief you of safe routes and areas to avoid, also inform your destination what time you were setting off and eta.
In hindsight even as I am writing this I realised how stupid / dangerous this was

I left barracks to many times to mention to go to bars / shops etc in our issued cars ( but with no pistol) and looking back at photos of me 37 years ago I was a poster boy for an off duty squaddie that was lucky I never got into any uncomfortable situations.

 

[parmoboy]

PB

Genuine question - why would two British Army corporals turn up at the funeral of a IRA man? surely it was dangerous to do so. My family members who served in NI were wary about leaving their barracks.

I can believe the Herford/Hereford mistake - its happend on here before. I think Herford is a smallish British base in Germany while Hereford is the HQ of the SAS and well known to IRA.

Where the second and third victims of Michael Stone ordinary family members/firends attending his funeral? (hence feelings were high)

I think the theory is that the driver was just finishing his tour and the passenger was starting his, so decided to give him an unofficial handover tour and show him around the area. Maybe he got carried away and said "I'll show you an IRA funeral, we're not in uniform so we can easily drive by unnoticed with the other cars".

I know the father of Derek (the driver) never believed that they were there by accident and said the army wouldn't allow him to speak to their commander.

Yes, the second and third victims were just friends and family. Michael Stone's intentions had been to execute Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness but he ended up just shooting people at random, as the mourners chased after him. Kevin Brady was one of those and he was shot and killed. A brave man in fairness. I can understand why those who were attending the funeral were so upset and angry, believing that the two men were initially loyalists who were there to attack Kevin's funeral, and then believing that they were SAS (if the ID card story is true). Harry told me that Kevin was a close friend of his and he'd arranged the carrying of the coffin that day. Still absolutely no excuse for the savagery that day.

 

[FishofContemplation]

Before 1922 the island of Ireland had always been one country. NI was created to protect the Protestant communities in the North of Irleand who considered themselves more British than Irish. The border was drawn to divide predominately Cathlolic Ireland from Protestant Ireland.

Always is a long time. In fact, Ireland was only a single country in anyone’s concept when Henry VIII started pretending it was with the Crown of Ireland Act and only really came into practical being under unified British rule a century or so later. Ireland was never a single country prior to that. None of which gives the British any rights of course. But the government of Ireland, and the inevitability or otherwise of a 32 county state, is a matter for the peoples of Ireland and not a historical necessity (any more than a single GB state is). Which I think you were saying as well.

 

[Merrykoala]

Woods and Howes was really just a case of wrong place, wrong time, nothing more. They became an official cautionary tale for support staff deploying over the water.

The initial briefing goes over how they ended up there, the news footage and then footage from the helicopter that turned up over the top of the funeral as things escalated.

They only had one weapon and had a stoppage (jam) that they didn't know how to clear.

They were out on a familiarisation drive/handover. They definitely weren't Special forces or trained surveillance operators. They messed up and ignored the Out of Bounds list which included the area of the funeral, apparently they also got turned around by a couple of army checkpoints around the funeral but I guess whatever they needed access to was too close to the funeral. There's a quiet consensus among some that Wood was being a bit of a big time Charlie and showing off a bit, that's the juiciest 'conspiracy' you can level at this.

The instructor was telling us everything that was happening to them as you see footage of them getting dragged out of the car and filled in, and much worse, then they were put in the back of a taxi and taken to some wasteground where they were shot with their own weapon.

The video ends with the message "don't let this happen to you"
Then it was a solid week of pistol training, anti ambush drills and some very eye opening legal stuff. Most rules of engagement stuff used to be a 15 minute video and a laminated card. Spending a few hours with a lawyer explaining stuff in detail put it into great perspective. Had quite a lot to say about the Lee Clegg shooting.

 

[Acklam_Lad]

I served 2 years across there doing the same role and wore civies, drove vans and cars and carried 9mm browning each time I left barracks repairing fixed Telecommunications. Lots of roles used this to prevents large scale deployment of troops to carry out tasks.

Exactly… every action outside of a green army unit patrol operated like this.

 

[parmoboy]

Woods and Howes was really just a case of wrong place, wrong time, nothing more. They became an official cautionary tale for support staff deploying over the water.

The initial briefing goes over how they ended up there, the news footage and then footage from the helicopter that turned up over the top of the funeral as things escalated.

They only had one weapon and had a stoppage (jam) that they didn't know how to clear.

They were out on a familiarisation drive/handover. They definitely weren't Special forces or trained surveillance operators. They messed up and ignored the Out of Bounds list which included the area of the funeral, apparently they also got turned around by a couple of army checkpoints around the funeral but I guess whatever they needed access to was too close to the funeral. There's a quiet consensus among some that Wood was being a bit of a big time Charlie and showing off a bit, that's the juiciest 'conspiracy' you can level at this.

The instructor was telling us everything that was happening to them as you see footage of them getting dragged out of the car and filled in, and much worse, then they were put in the back of a taxi and taken to some wasteground where they were shot with their own weapon.

The video ends with the message "don't let this happen to you"
Then it was a solid week of pistol training, anti ambush drills and some very eye opening legal stuff. Most rules of engagement stuff used to be a 15 minute video and a laminated card. Spending a few hours with a lawyer explaining stuff in detail put it into great perspective. Had quite a lot to say about the Lee Clegg shooting.

The Funeral Murders documentary shows some of the heli-tele footage. When the taxi pulled up at wasteground they actually jumped out of the taxi and put up a fight, but they were outnumbered and overpowered.

I've read details of what was done to them in the lead up to that. Horrific.

 

[Acklam_Lad]

Which Unit(s) did the two men belong to?

I have assumed they were what most people would call normal army units i.e not SAS

They were officially badged as Signals but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that they were attached to a different unit that was more clandestine.

It’s been known for years that in the SAS for example, if you are KIA you are automatically recorded as RTU (returned to Unit) at the time of death…. So say you joined from the Paras and you then got killed, you officially died as a Para on all paperwork

 

[Redwurzel]

General information - Any decoration received by SAS members is recorded as them belonging to a different Unit/Regiment. Say references in the London Gazette.

On war memorials SAS names are usually left off and never say SAS.

There were special Army units in NI that were not SAS that operated completely undercover.

I don't believe the two solders killed at the funeral were SAS or any other special forces, but I believe some of the people at the funeral thought they were and decisions were made in seconds when tensions were extremely high possibly the highest in the whole of the Troubles.

I think we can all agree they shouldn't have been where there were at the time they were.

It sounds from comments on here that the Army recognised this, behind closed doors of course, hence the extra traning given after this.

 

[Merrykoala]

I've seen a video were some guy claiming to be ex IRA still believes that they got two SAS guys that day.

 

[theboydom]

Always is a long time. In fact, Ireland was only a single country in anyone’s concept when Henry VIII started pretending it was with the Crown of Ireland Act and only really came into practical being under unified British rule a century or so later. Ireland was never a single country prior to that. None of which gives the British any rights of course. But the government of Ireland, and the inevitability or otherwise of a 32 county state, is a matter for the peoples of Ireland and not a historical necessity (any more than a single GB state is). Which I think you were saying as well.

Eh? That would be news to Pope Adrian, who gave it as a Lordship to the same Norman invaders who did for poor Harold back in the 11th\12th century

 

[newyddion]

The troubles is what plenty call that period. Hardly a controversial description.

He doesn’t have to like it tho.

I think it was done as part of the peace process intende to de escalate the situation.. removing inflammatory language.. the peace lines or peace walls were of the same sort of thing.

 

[parmoboy]

They were officially badged as Signals but it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that they were attached to a different unit that was more clandestine.

It’s been known for years that in the SAS for example, if you are KIA you are automatically recorded as RTU (returned to Unit) at the time of death…. So say you joined from the Paras and you then got killed, you officially died as a Para on all paperwork

I've just remembered David's fiancee gave an interview and said that David had told her he'd be working in an office and wouldn't even have to wear a uniform.