Helping to understand what it is like to be black

[mitch_at_merseyside]

I agree with the point Hundred is making about what can positive change are you suggesting instead of just ranting about the injustices of the past.

Someone earlier mentioned the number of black people in certain positions and we've had that same situation in football discussion in the past regarding black managers, and in those same positions mentioned like CEOs etc in respect of women. One thing that always seems to get ignored when just pulling out those stats is the time lag of making change to that change being reflected in society.

Football is a good example. In the 80s, 90s there was 1 or 2 black players in teams. It was noticeable if a team had a lot etc. There were racist chanting from the crowds. Now we don't really have that problem. I'm not saying racism has gone away, there are still racists, but they are no longer the majority i.e it is no longer systemic. The argument has now moved on to black managers but managers are usually ex players. We didn't have many black players in the past so the number of managers is not going to be representative of the current playing staff, it is representative of players from 10-20 years ago. That will change over time.

The issue I have a problem with in any of these measures to combat racism, sexism etc. is positive discrimination. In my opinion it should still be the best person for the role gets the job, not the best black person or the best woman but the best. That requires a levelling of the playing field from the ground up instead of just trying to solve the problem at the end which just furthers division. It's more difficult to do and takes longer but it is better in the long run otherwise it is just tokenism and ticking quotas. By making a point of hiring a woman specifically or a BAME then that is sexist/racist because you are using an irrelevant factor in the decision making and you will never end discrimination by constantly highlighting it.

I don't know how to solve the problem. In the US the biggest problem is that Black people make up a huge portion of the poorest economic group. The white people in that group suffer from the same lack of opportunities but they are lumped in with the successful white people in the stats so go unnoticed. To solve the problem quickly would require giving handouts to people based on race which won't solve any problems and will probably cause more. There won't be any distribution of wealth in America, they don't believe in it so the best they can hope for is moving the black people from the lowest economic group but that requires swapping to put some other group into their place. Who is that going to be and why is it any more fair?

Bang on the money, and the thing about racism is that it will never completely disappear. We have came a long way since the days of monkey chants at football grounds and Alf Garnett on our TV screens calling black people 'coons'. My American friends acknowledge racism is a bigger problem in the USA yet if you think about how young the US is as a country and actually the progress made since the days of segregation and civil rights movement in the 1960s, it really is phenomenal. It was only 50 years ago George Wallace won 5 states in a presidential election advocating for an end to desegregation for God's sake. But let's not get complacent and be realistic, there is more to be done, but sadly it will always be something that we cannot completely eradicate in society.

It is a shame that it took a death of a young man to be having these conversations. I think it is wonderful seeing the energy and passion from all kinds of walks of life, ethnicity and generations united on this. But I want zero association with any extreme activists aka the mobs and their intolerable behaviour. The issue over social distancing and wearing masks is also important too, we can't afford a second wave and the first lockdown being a waste of time. There is always the danger that when people go too far then you risk alienating the rest of society and your message gets lost within the images on TV and newspaper headlines. Just like the HK protests, there needs to be a clear plan of what we want in terms of reforms. In the US, more diversity in the police, clear legislation on equal treatment on citizens and better channels of filing complaints against the police would be a good start.

I was part of the student protests over the trebling of tuition fees in 2010. Back then setting off for London and the thousands that turned out, it really felt like we were putting the government on the back foot and there would be a U-turn on the issue. Unfortunately the event was ruined by protestors smashing up Tory HQ and throwing fire extinguishers off the roof. At the time I thought it was cool and believed maybe with these tactics, we can force the issue, as you know it was counterproductive and as a 19 year old back then, I was very naive. Later that evening instead of the NUS president calling about the unfair policy, the media reported on the cost to taxpayers and people who had gotten seriously hurt. A message to the thugs out there with the spray paint, ropes and hammers, it isn't funny, it isn't clever and you're ruining the movement.

 

[atypical_boro]

Bang on the money, and the thing about racism is that it will never completely disappear. We have came a long way since the days of monkey chants at football grounds and Alf Garnett on our TV screens calling black people 'coons'. My American friends acknowledge racism is a bigger problem in the USA yet if you think about how young the US is as a country and actually the progress made since the days of segregation and civil rights movement in the 1960s, it really is phenomenal. It was only 50 years ago George Wallace won 5 states in a presidential election advocating for an end to desegregation for God's sake. But let's not get complacent and be realistic, there is more to be done, but sadly it will always be something that we cannot completely eradicate in society.

It is a shame that it took a death of a young man to be having these conversations. I think it is wonderful seeing the energy and passion from all kinds of walks of life, ethnicity and generations united on this. But I want zero association with any extreme activists aka the mobs and their intolerable behaviour. The issue over social distancing and wearing masks is also important too, we can't afford a second wave and the first lockdown being a waste of time. There is always the danger that when people go too far then you risk alienating the rest of society and your message gets lost within the images on TV and newspaper headlines. Just like the HK protests, there needs to be a clear plan of what we want in terms of reforms. In the US, more diversity in the police, clear legislation on equal treatment on citizens and better channels of filing complaints against the police would be a good start.

I was part of the student protests over the trebling of tuition fees in 2010. Back then setting off for London and the thousands that turned out, it really felt like we were putting the government on the back foot and there would be a U-turn on the issue. Unfortunately the event was ruined by protestors smashing up Tory HQ and throwing fire extinguishers off the roof. At the time I thought it was cool and believed maybe with these tactics, we can force the issue, as you know it was counterproductive and as a 19 year old back then, I was very naive. Later that evening instead of the NUS president calling about the unfair policy, the media reported on the cost to taxpayers and people who had gotten seriously hurt. A message to the thugs out there with the spray paint, ropes and hammers, it isn't funny, it isn't clever and you're ruining the movement.

Interesting post mitch. I was that bit older than you during the tuition fees fiasco and I remember thinking at the time it was going to achieve nothing but division, regardless of your views on the subject.

I have no issue with the protest, personally, but when people start smashing things up they do usually lose public support, and those protesting need to think carefully about that. There seems to be a view that those protesting now are at the end of their tether, but I still don't think burning things down will achieve what they (and most of us) want. Just my view.

 

[mitch_at_merseyside]

I think at that time I thought perhaps the Lib Dems were going to do the U-turn, but it wasn't to be.

As for the current protests, I'm giving them unconditional support, but if the mobs take centre stage again, then that really puts me off from taking part in them. My fear is that it will turn out like 2011 all over again, things will be smashed up for the sake of it and people are letting off steam for spending weeks cooked up under lockdown and cheesed off with our current government. Listening to people's opinions on the radio and from what I saw on TV, it is black people themselves that feel most angry about what has happened. They really don't deserve this and I hope next time around the peaceful protestors call out the sick mobs for what they really are.

 

[atypical_boro]

I agree with the point Hundred is making about what can positive change are you suggesting instead of just ranting about the injustices of the past.

Someone earlier mentioned the number of black people in certain positions and we've had that same situation in football discussion in the past regarding black managers, and in those same positions mentioned like CEOs etc in respect of women. One thing that always seems to get ignored when just pulling out those stats is the time lag of making change to that change being reflected in society.

Football is a good example. In the 80s, 90s there was 1 or 2 black players in teams. It was noticeable if a team had a lot etc. There were racist chanting from the crowds. Now we don't really have that problem. I'm not saying racism has gone away, there are still racists, but they are no longer the majority i.e it is no longer systemic. The argument has now moved on to black managers but managers are usually ex players. We didn't have many black players in the past so the number of managers is not going to be representative of the current playing staff, it is representative of players from 10-20 years ago. That will change over time.

The issue I have a problem with in any of these measures to combat racism, sexism etc. is positive discrimination. In my opinion it should still be the best person for the role gets the job, not the best black person or the best woman but the best. That requires a levelling of the playing field from the ground up instead of just trying to solve the problem at the end which just furthers division. It's more difficult to do and takes longer but it is better in the long run otherwise it is just tokenism and ticking quotas. By making a point of hiring a woman specifically or a BAME then that is sexist/racist because you are using an irrelevant factor in the decision making and you will never end discrimination by constantly highlighting it.

I don't know how to solve the problem. In the US the biggest problem is that Black people make up a huge portion of the poorest economic group. The white people in that group suffer from the same lack of opportunities but they are lumped in with the successful white people in the stats so go unnoticed. To solve the problem quickly would require giving handouts to people based on race which won't solve any problems and will probably cause more. There won't be any distribution of wealth in America, they don't believe in it so the best they can hope for is moving the black people from the lowest economic group but that requires swapping to put some other group into their place. Who is that going to be and why is it any more fair?

I think the idea is that the lowest economic group shouldn't be determined by one's skin colour. Whilst it is, we will always have problems. As for 'fairness', well no one is going to accept the status quo just because the alternative won't be any less fair. You're already acknowledging the unfairness.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

I have no issue with the protest, personally, but when people start smashing things up they do usually lose public support, and those protesting need to think carefully about that. There seems to be a view that those protesting now are at the end of their tether, but I still don't think burning things down will achieve what they want. Just my view.

There are two distinct groups of people at these protests. Those who wish to protest and those who wish to smash things up. The latter have no interest in what is being protested, they are there purely to cause trouble, and these days they are a presence at nearly every event. I think that in the US where racism is worse and police brutality is greater, you are seeing people at the end of their tether but in this country it is the usual fools giving demonstrations a bad name.

 

[atypical_boro]

There are two distinct groups of people at these protests. Those who wish to protest and those who wish to smash things up. The latter have no interest in what is being protested, they are there purely to cause trouble, and these days they are a presence at nearly every event. I think that in the US where racism is worse and police brutality is greater, you are seeing people at the end of their tether but in this country it is the usual fools giving demonstrations a bad name.

I'm not sure the lines are quite so clear TBH. I think some people go with good intentions and then get passionate/emotive and do things they wouldn't otherwise do. The outcome is the same though, and I suspect public opinion remains the same regardless of the motive.

 

[Mr Holgate]

OK but being pulled up because the police are looking for a particular person isn't the same as them assuming you are a criminal because of your skin colour.

my point is could've taken offence. But they were actually looking for someone who happened to be my colour. Proof

Is it fine though? I guess it depends, did you mean you like similar to the guy they found or simply that you were both gypsies?

If it's the latter then you yourself have been victim of discrimination and that just isn't right at all.

They were looking for a 6ft gypsy. I'm slightly taller than that and had been visiting a friend at a site. Genuinely I wasn't offended and myself and the officer were fine. He was more than polite.

 

[boromike85]

I think the idea is that the lowest economic group shouldn't be determined by one's skin colour. Whilst it is, we will always have problems. As for 'fairness', well no one is going to accept the status quo just because the alternative won't be any less fair. You're already acknowledging the unfairness.

My point is that it isn't determined by skin colour but is just a sign of poor social mobility. It's just an unfortunate circumstance of the issue mentioned in OPs video of the rest of society having a head start. Poor people are more likely to die poor than to climb the social/economic ladder. The aim should be to raise the standards for the lowest sector, not target a group of individuals within that group because of skin colour.

 

[Mr Holgate]

My point is that it isn't determined by skin colour but is just a sign of poor social mobility. It's just an unfortunate circumstance of the issue mentioned in OPs video of the rest of society having a head start. Poor people are more likely to die poor than to climb the social/economic ladder. The aim should be to raise the standards for the lowest sector, not target a group of individuals within that group because of skin colour.

The issue here is the lowest income and most deprived areas in UK are predominantly white... Where does that fit in the narrative?

 

[atypical_boro]

The issue here is the lowest income and most deprived areas in UK are predominantly white... Where does that fit in the narrative?

Those people are not discriminated against from birth because of their skin colour. They have all the same social mobility issues, but none of the racism.

 

[Mr Holgate]

Those people are not discriminated against from birth because of their skin colour. They have all the same social mobility issues, but none of the racism.

I've been racially abused by black people and other white people. Racism is on all sides in afraid. However being from a minority group has not stopped me progressing in life at all. There are racist people. Doesn't mean it's a racist country.

 

[atypical_boro]

I've been racially abused by black people and other white people. Racism is on all sides in afraid. However being from a minority group has not stopped me progressing in life at all. There are racist people. Doesn't mean it's a racist country.

Depends how you define “a racist country”, but in any case, not sure anyone deemed the UK “a racist country”. It would be nice if it categorically wasn’t though, which I’m not sure anyone could claim either.

 

[Mr Holgate]

Depends how you define “a racist country”, but in any case, not sure anyone deemed the UK “a racist country”. It would be nice if it categorically wasn’t though, which I’m not sure anyone could claim either.

My question is where is the country that has the least or no racism? Does it exist or has it existed. I believe there's equal opportunities for all. There won't always be equality of outcome but that's a different debate.

 

[NYboro]

It probably deserves a thread of its own, but I've just watched Sitting In Limbo on the BBC about Anthony Bryan, one of the Windrush generation. He still has not been fully compensated for what the British government put him through.

 

[FatCat]

Oh come on. there is a tiny minority of people causing trouble, as there is at nearly all protests. But you know what? They are the ones who make the news. People demonstrating for equality tend not to be hate filled.

I see no evidence that it’s a minority causing trouble , people keep saying that with no evidence at all to back it up.

 

[FatCat]

It probably deserves a thread of its own, but I've just watched Sitting In Limbo on the BBC about Anthony Bryan, one of the Windrush generation. He still has not been fully compensated for what the British government put him through.

I just watched that - was a great watch - crazy time think what happened to these people and it seems only a small few have Benn compensated.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

I see no evidence that it’s a minority causing trouble , people keep saying that with no evidence at all to back it up.

There were 15,000 people out in Manchester and many more than that in london, not to mention the smaller gatherings across the country. Are you really claiming that the majority were trouble causers?

 

[FatCat]

There were 15,000 people out in Manchester and many more than that in london, not to mention the smaller gatherings across the country. Are you really claiming that the majority were trouble causers?

No but I’m saying it wasn’t a small minority as is being reported.

 

[BlindBoyGrunt]

No but I’m saying it wasn’t a small minority as is being reported.

Well stop saying it was a majority then

 

[A]

Well stop saying it was a majority then

he hasn't, in any post