Have the police lost our trust?

Laughing said:
Please stop telling lies for christ sake. I said no attempt was made to understand why she may be anxious when approached by white police officers.

Thats a couple of clear disengenuous comments made now. Carry on without me.
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Good afternoon Laughing.
Do you recommend fish n chips or pizza for tonight`s tea?
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Andy_W said:
What happened before might not matter to you, but it will matter to TFL and then to the police if they're being abused and she's being anti-social. This will all be recorded of course.

I don't care how she wants to act, she can do what she likes, but there are repercussions for every action.

The police have an obligation to uphold the law, and act on suspected reports of crime, however minor. If the public want to escalate and make something minor worse, then that's up to them, but the police will escalate in response if the public have zero intention in being reasonable.

The womans "training" is irrelevant when she's not meeting the rules of travel, not obeying a police request after being informed of not meeting the rules of travel, and being abusive. Having "no training" is not an excuse to just go and do what the hell you like. The conditions of travel, laws and rights are avialible for all to see if they want to read them. As for de-escalation, a reasonable person would just show proof to TFL, or just stop when the police asked and show proof to them.

I won't get into the pathetic name calling, but you're the one making assumptions which go directly against a police statement.

You don't know there wasn't reasonable attmept at communication before the video you saw, the police statement indicates she had zero intention of stopping or communicating, other than being abusive of course.

You don't know I'm wrong, you didn't see all the video, you've just got on a high horse about a clipped video and assumed all of the cops there are bad.

De-escalation is a two way process.

Her colour and child are irrelevant, in as such they are not a free pass to not obey conditions of travel, not obey the law or be abusive to police. If it was a black or white youth with a hoodie on in that clipped video, would you have the same response?

I have scorn for anyone who thinks all TFL employees and police are bad, and who make assumptions from clipped videos without seeing the lead up to it, and also thinks police statements are "codswallop".
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I have been following this thread and I don't have an opinion either way. However, Andy's reply intrigued me. In it, he states that the lady was stopped for "not obeying a police request". Was it a "request" or an order. If it was a request then does she have the right to refuse a request? If not then is it an order? How would anyone know the difference?
 
Trug said:
I have been following this thread and I don't have an opinion either way. However, Andy's reply intrigued me. In it, he states that the lady was stopped for "not obeying a police request". Was it a "request" or an order. If it was a request then does she have the right to refuse a request? If not then is it an order? How would anyone know the difference?
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Interesting question, the exact statement is here https://news.met.police.uk/news/sta...eo-of-fare-evasion-incident-in-croydon-470067 , but the bit about that bit said:

“The woman involved in this incident was asked to provide her ticket as she got off the bus, but did not do so. She was spoken to by a TfL inspector, then by a PCSO and finally by a police officer. She continued to try to walk away and did not provide her ticket for inspection."

The way I understand that, is they can request you to stop, and show your ticket (like the TFL guy did and like the PSCO did, and finally like the cops did), and you're welcome to decline all of those of course. If you decline to show your ticket to TFL, then you have to provide them with your details so they can give you a penalty. You're welcome to decline to do that too, but they have a zero-tolerance policy for fare evasion (which they would be fair in assuming), so will get the cops involved. If you decline the cops or don't respond and they suspect a crime, then they might issue an order or just stop her from walking away.

What is also interesting is that the whole thing was a pre-planned operation, so it seems like they were all there in advance, to some degree. TFL, PSCO and the cops. Bus stops, TFL guy checks all the tickets of all those coming off, then goes on the bus checks all tickets of those on the bus, and then gets off again. Any problems and he calls over the cops. Probably explains why two TFL guys were there, rather than one. Not sure whether the PSCO was with the TFL guy checking tickets, or the cops originally.
 
Andy_W said:
Interesting question, the exact statement is here https://news.met.police.uk/news/sta...eo-of-fare-evasion-incident-in-croydon-470067 , but the bit about that bit said:

“The woman involved in this incident was asked to provide her ticket as she got off the bus, but did not do so. She was spoken to by a TfL inspector, then by a PCSO and finally by a police officer. She continued to try to walk away and did not provide her ticket for inspection."

The way I understand that, is they can request you to stop, and show your ticket (like the TFL guy did and like the PSCO did, and finally like the cops did), and you're welcome to decline all of those of course. If you decline to show your ticket to TFL, then you have to provide them with your details so they can give you a penalty. You're welcome to decline to do that too, but they have a zero-tolerance policy for fare evasion (which they would be fair in assuming), so will get the cops involved. If you decline the cops or don't respond and they suspect a crime, then they might issue an order or just stop her from walking away.

What is also interesting is that the whole thing was a pre-planned operation, so it seems like they were all there in advance, to some degree. TFL, PSCO and the cops. Bus stops, TFL guy checks all the tickets of all those coming off, then goes on the bus checks all tickets of those on the bus, and then gets off again. Any problems and he calls over the cops. Probably explains why two TFL guys were there, rather than one. Not sure whether the PSCO was with the TFL guy checking tickets, or the cops originally.
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Thanks Andy- I'm still none the wiser though
 
Trug said:
Thanks Andy- I'm still none the wiser though
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Haha, yup! To be fair if the cops asked or requested I would just do whatever they wanted anyway, and wouldn't even get to the point of being ordered. Same as I would just comply with a ticket inspector, PSCO or anyone else just trying to do their job.
 
Trug said:
Thanks Andy- I'm still none the wiser though
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A policeman can detain you if he has reasonable suscipicion that a crime has been committed. Detained can mean many things from an order to wait to full arrest.

If there is no reasonable suspicion of a crime then the police may not detain you.
 
Once, me and my nephew got on the train, we were sat near one of the doors, as it came near to our platform we stood up to get ready to disembark, as the train stopped a rather intimidating ticket inspector demanded to see our tickets, I put my hand in my pocket and handed the tickets over, the ticket inspector looked at them and stood aside, we got off the train and went on our merry way. 👍🏻👍🏻
 
Andy_W said:
Haha, yup! To be fair if the cops asked or requested I would just do whatever they wanted anyway, and wouldn't even get to the point of being ordered. Same as I would just comply with a ticket inspector, PSCO or anyone else just trying to do their job.
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So you would just comply, even if they were acting outside the law?
 
Yes.
Clips like the one in the OP are very very rare.
I've never met a copper, either when they've been working or not, that I wouldn't trust 100%
People making too much of isolated incidents are just fannies.
 
zzzzz said:
Yes.
Clips like the one in the OP are very very rare.
I've never met a copper, either when they've been working or not, that I wouldn't trust 100%
People making too much of isolated incidents are just fannies.
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Crikey you’ve been very very lucky
 
Laughing said:
A policeman can detain you if he has reasonable suscipicion that a crime has been committed. Detained can mean many things from an order to wait to full arrest.

If there is no reasonable suspicion of a crime then the police may not detain you.
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They can for a stop search. Saves taking innocent people in to custody
 
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