Getting comfortable with the reality of being a Boro Fan

[indeedido]

Are you agreeing with The statement it is mis managed?

I see it simpler than you. Say my wife and I were jointly on £80,000 a year and our son son does not pay lodge is it mismanaged?

See it as simply as you want and your example does not compare as you share no details of your house value, mortgage, outgoings, other wealth, or any of your sons details. And I don't care about that anyway.
Bulkhaul is strong, not that big, but the owners have taken out £147m in dividends in the last two years, weakening their balance sheet, but are still indirectly owed £115m by Boro.

Bulkhaul is very successful, Middlesbrough FC is not - on any level.
MFC could have strong revenues if in the PL, where they were just five years ago. They were appallingly led in the PL and thereafter which has hugely extended the debt mountain (albeit internal) the Club now has. It could not have been worse run for five years.
We sit with a mid table Championship squad of very limited market value and a financial basket case of a club with massive debt to a sole shareholder who has not invested in the club for 5 years, but has taken over £100m out of Bulkhaul in dividends in two years.
Yes I believe the Football Club part of Gibson O'Neill has been appallingly managed since 2016.

 

[Same_as_before]

I did not say successful, you could argue that Aresnal are not successful.

I asked if MFC is mismanaged, which is a constant criticism. My argument is that it isn't. All the issues are football related, they are outside of the owners control.

Eg. I thought Strachan was a great choice, I disagreed with Southgate. I would have bought Saville I would not have bought Akbon.

I think tickets are too expensive, but so is the theatre.

I do not for one second think MFC does not, or has not, had a plan.


Re dividends I think you are showing a level of envy. I assume you take home your net pay.

I have no will to go look at the numbers as it's a privately owned company. I see it no differently to the restaurant we go to, I have never asked to look at their accounts. However although there were dividends were they called? Or left in the company.

 

[indeedido]

I did not say successful, you could argue that Aresnal are not successful.

I asked if MFC is mismanaged, which is a constant criticism. My argument is that it isn't. All the issues are football related, they are outside of the owners control.

Eg. I thought Strachan was a great choice, I disagreed with Southgate. I would have bought Saville I would not have bought Akbon.

I think tickets are too expensive, but so is the theatre.

I do not for one second think MFC does not, or has not, had a plan.


Re dividends I think you are showing a level of envy. I assume you take home your net pay.

I have no will to go look at the numbers as it's a privately owned company. I see it no differently to the restaurant we go to, I have never asked to look at their accounts. However although there were dividends were they called? Or left in the company.

It is a football club you idiot, of course the issues are football related. They are NOT outside the owner's control as HE makes the key appointments AND decisions.
You CAN look at the published accounts of both MFC AND Bulkhaul Group. I have, which is why I have made the comments I have.

I made it clear in the initial post that it is entirely up to shareholders what they do with the equity in a business. Gibson and O'Neill own GO'N and all subsidiaries. It remains a fact that £147m has been paid in dividends to the shareholders of Bulkhaul in the last two years and does not sit in the Company Accounts anymore. Nor does any element of it sit in MFC's accounts.
Do I envy Steve Gibson? Not at all and he has done well to build his wealth.
Do I think he has made a balls of things at MFC since May 2016? Absolutely.

 

[Redwurzel]

Whilst some won’t be able to equate this statement I criticise because I care. I just am filled with despair and disappointment how the club is unrecognisable from yesteryear. The ambition we used to have, the quality of players, the standard of football. A club to be exceedingly proud of.

And today? A pale shadow of the club and a return to the mediocre. The millions that have been wasted. Despite a clear out I don’t feel we are equipped to progress out of this division.

A lot of fans don’t wish to/ can’t see we are treading water at best. I really would have hoped our sights were higher through having a genuine chance of “ giving it a go”. We aren’t near this sadly.

NK - 1981-1986 @ MFC that was going backgrounds and the fans that remained loyal really did know what the word despair meant - crowds went from 18k average to 5k - for over 2.5 years in that spell we never paid a fee for a player relying on young lads and frees.

 

[indeedido]

NK - 1981-1986 @ MFC that was going backgrounds and the fans that remained loyal really did know what the word despair meant - crowds went from 18k average to 5k - for over 2.5 years in that spell we never paid a fee for a player relying on young lads and frees.

I was around for all the 81-86 despair, seeing more matches then than I do now as a SC holder who goes to only a few aways these days.
It was a collapse on the pitch following poor leadership of the club.
Where we were under Woodgate in 2020 was very similar to 86 and that relegation season and collapse, and followed a similar period of horrendous leadership of the club since 2016.

A wise fella who was more involved in the saving of our club than Gibson in 86, told me that Gibson would take the club back to where he took it over in 93. I said I thought him a terrible pessimist, but nowadays I'm not so sure he wasn't spot on.
One thing is for sure, 2016-20 has been a terrible episode.

 

[Nosmo-King]

NK - 1981-1986 @ MFC that was going backgrounds and the fans that remained loyal really did know what the word despair meant - crowds went from 18k average to 5k - for over 2.5 years in that spell we never paid a fee for a player relying on young lads and frees.

I remember those days - very depressing. Going to games was at times a resignation of expecting defeats- horrendous times. You could park a bus on the Holgate!

 

[Duffman]

Good management might be seen as a Burnley, Bournemouth Brentford West Brom et al - bad management is a Bolton, Bury Wigan Derby - we are not a team affected by bad management IMHO

 

[Same_as_before]

It is a football club you idiot, of course the issues are football related. They are NOT outside the owner's control as HE makes the key appointments AND decisions.
You CAN look at the published accounts of both MFC AND Bulkhaul Group. I have, which is why I have made the comments I have.

I made it clear in the initial post that it is entirely up to shareholders what they do with the equity in a business. Gibson and O'Neill own GO'N and all subsidiaries. It remains a fact that £147m has been paid in dividends to the shareholders of Bulkhaul in the last two years and does not sit in the Company Accounts anymore. Nor does any element of it sit in MFC's accounts.
Do I envy Steve Gibson? Not at all and he has done well to build his wealth.
Do I think he has made a balls of things at MFC since May 2016? Absolutely.

I will accept that in hindsight they look bad footballing decisions, so he gets about 50% of managers right. That's better than Man U since Fergie.

I accept the idiot comment, particularly as you agree there is no mismanaged of Bulkhaul the holding company.

I note you make no comment on the planning process that was questioned.

 

[r00fie1]

We are nowhere as "big" as some think we are.
Maybe if Steve Gibson decided to take his foot off the gas and offered to sell a share in the club to an outside investor(s) - we might find the reallity a little colder?
We dont exist in isolation - in a vacuum - in a goldfish bowl - away from the "football" world.
"Our" club exists because someone props it up.
We have no say in it - but we comfort ourselves that Steve Gibson is "one of our own".
When - not "if" - he decides to say enough is enough - we may face the same problems we did in 1986.
There is nothing to stop Gibson pulling the plug.
People are scared to contemplate "what if" (?)

 

[Nosmo-King]

We are nowhere as "big" as some think we are.
Maybe if Steve Gibson decided to take his foot off the gas and offered to sell a share in the club to an outside investor(s) - we might find the reallity a little colder?
We dont exist in isolation - in a vacuum - in a goldfish bowl - away from the "football" world.
"Our" club exists because someone props it up.
We have no say in it - but we comfort ourselves that Steve Gibson is "one of our own".
When - not "if" - he decides to say enough is enough - we may face the same problems we did in 1986.
There is nothing to stop Gibson pulling the plug.
People are scared to contemplate "what if" (?)

And the common denominator is…… Steve Gibson. The club has so much debt it is completely unattractive to any investor- indeed I doubt we. Could continue to trade if the debts were called in. So for all the good of yesteryear he did it is the financial mismanagement that has resulted in the fact that we are stuck with him as much as he is with us!

 

[indeedido]

I will accept that in hindsight they look bad footballing decisions, so he gets about 50% of managers right. That's better than Man U since Fergie.

I accept the idiot comment, particularly as you agree there is no mismanaged of Bulkhaul the holding company.

I note you make no comment on the planning process that was questioned.

Apologies for the idiot comment even if you accept it. I just get so angry when Gibson is defended to the hilt whatever happens.
Gibson and O'Neill have built an excellent business in Bulkhaul which has been very good for Teesside. They've taken £147m in dividends out of it in just two years, leaving a business still in very good shape and a very profitable concern.
It would appear tens of millions of Rockliffe Undertakings to Group have been converted to equity to cover the £46m that Rockliffe Hall has lost to 2019. As I keep saying Gibson is of course free to do whatever he wants across his Companies. Until this conversion of internal debt to equity, Rockliffe was only a going concern because GON did not call in the Undertakings (as Boro). It had a nett value of -£2m.
Steve Gibson has taken us all on a great journey to 2006 through ambition, vision and guts and I don't question his love for Boro.
Since relegation in 2009 he has lost the plot, bar the adventure with Kenyon and Karanka. Since promotion in 2016 he has got virtually everything wrong.
He didn't spend enough when he needed to, spent too much when he didn't need to, hired a succession of disastrous managers, signed a load of rubbish on ridiculous contracts and sold players he should have kept. All on his watch - there is nobody else.
As for a long term plan and MFC - any plan - don't make me laugh.
Gibson can obviously run an excellent haulage business, but he can't run a football club.

I will always be grateful for the Gibson to 2006 and will always respect him for funding the losses his awful decisions have made since with loans from his successful business, but he is deeply flawed in football business and clearly has no intention of investing in the club.
As I have said before, He is stuck with us and we are stuck with him.

 

[r00fie1]

Every football club hangs by a thread.
But some threads are thicker and stronger than others.

 

[indeedido]

We are nowhere as "big" as some think we are.
Maybe if Steve Gibson decided to take his foot off the gas and offered to sell a share in the club to an outside investor(s) - we might find the reallity a little colder?
We dont exist in isolation - in a vacuum - in a goldfish bowl - away from the "football" world.
"Our" club exists because someone props it up.
We have no say in it - but we comfort ourselves that Steve Gibson is "one of our own".
When - not "if" - he decides to say enough is enough - we may face the same problems we did in 1986.
There is nothing to stop Gibson pulling the plug.
People are scared to contemplate "what if" (?)

I have loads of respect for you as a poster Roofie but this post is nonsense.
Gibson O'Neill own the Club. The Club is worth -£86m because it owes the parent £116m to June 2020.
Every year the club loses money, another £31m last year, though Covid impact on revenues obviously drove that.

£147m was taken out of Bulkhaul in dividends in the two years to June 2020 and a huge internal loan was capitalised for Rockliffe Hall which has been loss making since it opened. It is Gibson's choice what to do with his money and congratulations on making it.
But he has made the key football decisions that sees the club do so badly and lose so much money.
You say there is nothing to stop him pulling the plug?
If he refused to guarantee the Group loan of £116m, MFC would cease to be a going concern, it would be wound up owing a total of £86m (even if assets could be liquidated to book value). Gibson O'Neill would have to write off their internal loan which would impact the Group. Gibson's shares would be worthless. The Club would be bounced down the leagues. His reputation would be in the gutter.
He is not going to do that so long as he has a Bulkhaul able to finance the club and give him chance to get it promoted and have value.
He is stuck with us.
Nobody would buy the club given the financial position Gibson has put it in. He won't write off the loans (like he just has for Rockliffe) and nobody will pay him anything for a business that is so much less than worthless.
We are stuck with him.

What if ?
He pulls the plug and loses an absolute fortune and his reputation.
We lose our Championship club.
He's not staying just because he loves his club.

 

[r00fie1]

I have loads of respect for you as a poster Roofie but this post is nonsense.
Gibson O'Neill own the Club. The Club is worth -£86m because it owes the parent £116m to June 2020.
Every year the club loses money, another £31m last year, though Covid impact on revenues obviously drove that.

£147m was taken out of Bulkhaul in dividends in the two years to June 2020 and a huge internal loan was capitalised for Rockliffe Hall which has been loss making since it opened. It is Gibson's choice what to do with his money and congratulations on making it.
But he has made the key football decisions that sees the club do so badly and lose so much money.
You say there is nothing to stop him pulling the plug?
If he refused to guarantee the Group loan of £116m, MFC would cease to be a going concern, it would be wound up owing a total of £86m (even if assets could be liquidated to book value). Gibson O'Neill would have to write off their internal loan which would impact the Group. Gibson's shares would be worthless. The Club would be bounced down the leagues. His reputation would be in the gutter.
He is not going to do that so long as he has a Bulkhaul able to finance the club and give him chance to get it promoted and have value.
He is stuck with us.
Nobody would buy the club given the financial position Gibson has put it in. He won't write off the loans (like he just has for Rockliffe) and nobody will pay him anything for a business that is so much less than worthless.
We are stuck with him.

What if ?
He pulls the plug and loses an absolute fortune and his reputation.
We lose our Championship club.
He's not staying just because he loves his club.

Perhaps you have misread my cxomments (?) - you will see that your sentiments and mine are saying virtually the same thing!
We are "propped up" financially - our current modus operandi would be unsustainable without financial support.
Like you say - we are a club which loses money - and without external funds we are history [at the moment].
Like you say - to support the club is our Stevens choice.
Whatever happens - he wont get his money back - I agree.
My point is that we are not as "big" as some think we are - and without our benign benefactor our "reallity" would be completely different.

 

[Redwurzel]

Most of our history we have been outside the top division, a lot of it when the Teesside area was doing OK economically too, say in the 1960s. Now the area is not a prosperous in relative terms and some think we are struggling because we are not one of the favs for promotion. Bolton, Ipswich, Portsmouth, Sunderland, Charlton, Sheff Wed and have won more than us and are a division below us.

Nowadays we are probably only paying bang average championship wages, with really only Johnny Howson left from 2017.

I still think we can get a top 6 spot, if we can keep key players fit and boost the squad next week with a couple of signing and a couple of decent loan signings. The draw at Fulham was evidence of that. Fulham will win over 75% of their home games this season.

 

[indeedido]

Perhaps you have misread my cxomments (?) - you will see that your sentiments and mine are saying virtually the same thing!
We are "propped up" financially - our current modus operandi would be unsustainable without financial support.
Like you say - we are a club which loses money - and without external funds we are history [at the moment].
Like you say - to support the club is our Stevens choice.
Whatever happens - he wont get his money back - I agree.
My point is that we are not as "big" as some think we are - and without our benign benefactor our "reallity" would be completely different.

You see I don't see him as benign (and his reality would be very different too)
We are a club who should be playing more often than not in the top flight, because that is what we have done more often than not through history - ranked in top 20 across league history.
We have no divine right to be there any more than a number of other clubs (Forest, Derby, Wendies, Sheff U etc) who have good support, good potential and top flight histories.
But when Brentford, Burnley, Brighton, Palace, Wolves, Leicester, Southampton, Watford are actually there it is natural that fans will look and say if they are then we should be too.

 

[Frozen Horse]

I tend to think we're tier 2 upstarts who occasionally crash the top flight.

I much prefer thinking if us like than believing we belong in the PL.

 

[r00fie1]

You see I don't see him as benign (and his reality would be very different too)
We are a club who should be playing more often than not in the top flight, because that is what we have done more often than not through history - ranked in top 20 across league history.
We have no divine right to be there any more than a number of other clubs (Forest, Derby, Wendies, Sheff U etc) who have good support, good potential and top flight histories.
But when Brentford, Burnley, Brighton, Palace, Wolves, Leicester, Southampton, Watford are actually there it is natural that fans will look and say if they are then we should be too.

Its probably as much about shoving money around (?) - I may be wrong, but there must be tax advantages too?
Someone will know.

 

[r00fie1]

I tend to think we're tier 2 upstarts who occasionally crash the top flight.

I much prefer thinking if us like than believing we belong in the PL.

Its often better to be in amongst the scrap to get up, than get stuffed and humiliated in the Prem.
But, hey, ask Trees fans where they would like to be!
We have been spoilt really - but next time we need to manage ourselves to stay there, not draw our way to safety

 

[indeedido]

I tend to think we're tier 2 upstarts who occasionally crash the top flight.

I much prefer thinking if us like than believing we belong in the PL.

And your mindset is self fulfilling - I hate it.