FAO Lefty

[Lefty]

That is too simplistic a question because there are multiple variables that have changed things that I couldn't foresee at the time. But that doesn't mean that it was wrong to vote Leave. If you are asking:
1. Could Brexit have been successful if everyone had acted in good faith, then yes it could have been.
2. Do I think the government have done well in their implementation of Brexit? Then no, but they have been constrained by the remainer majority in Parliament.
3. Do I think remainers are the stupid ones because by refusing to acknowledge that the country voted for Brexit and doing their utmost to stop it they have forced the government to do the only thing they could get to over the line which resulted in a hard brexit, the last thing that remainers would have wanted, and another 5 years of Tory rule, then yes.
4. Did I ever expect us to be in a worse position after voting for Brexit? Then yes, it was evident that there would be short-term downsides but in the long term there would be no major difference between being in the EU and being outside of it economically.
5. Have my reasons for voting Brexit changed? No.

All of the negatives of Brexit could easily have been mitigated by co-operation. Firstly our own politicians putting aside their differences and doing what the country had decided, the biggest being stop talking about remain being an option and think of the best way to leave. Secondly, co-operation with the EU. Be clear and spell out the default position as something to avoid, but still a legitimate option. Lay down the baseline relationship and build from there as if we were a 3rd nation. The way round we approached it was farcical and it left the EU in total control.

Mike, you're answering a load of questions I haven't asked. They aren't bad points, but we are nowhere near that stage yet.

At the moment I'm just trying to find three or four Leave voters who, in denying they weren't stupid, are prepared to scrutinise their own reasoning and be courageous enough to allow others to put them under scrutiny too.

I'm putting myself up there to be shot at.

We haven't even defined 'stupid' yet, so it's premature for you to state that you aren't it, don't you think?

 

[boromike85]

Mike, you're answering a load of questions I haven't asked. They aren't bad points, but we are nowhere near that stage yet.

At the moment I'm just trying to find three or four Leave voters who, in denying they weren't stupid, are prepared to scrutinise their own reasoning and be courageous enough to allow others to put them under scrutiny too.

I'm putting myself up there to be shot at.

We haven't even defined 'stupid' yet, so it's premature for you to state that you aren't it, don't you think?

You asked me a question that couldn't be answered with a simple yes/no. Maybe it was too stupid a question or maybe the questioner didn't understand that it wasn't a simple question.

Stupid is already defined and I am confident that I am not stupid, and I don't think you are either. As said before, people that are stupid can make stupid decisions or do something that is stupid but that isn't the same as them being stupid. I don't need you to redefine stupid so it fits your hypothesis.

 

[Borobuddah]

And you haven’t answered the one question I have repeatedly asked.

you tried to grill me on the other thread without sharing your own view, promised to give it and haven’t done so.

forget the game playing and give it along with your view of Brexit voters being illogical, quite simple really.

 

[Lefty]

You asked me a question that couldn't be answered with a simple yes/no. Maybe it was too stupid a question or maybe the questioner didn't understand that it wasn't a simple question.

Stupid is already defined and I am confident that I am not stupid, and I don't think you are either. As said before, people that aren't stupid can make stupid decisions or do something that is stupid but that isn't the same as them being stupid. I don't need you to redefine stupid so it fits your hypothesis.

All I was checking was that you voted Leave and still think you made the right choice. As opposed to voting Remain but were now Leave (like Piers Morgan), or voted Leave, but were now Remain like Borobuddah. You didn't need to go any further just yet.

 

[boromike85]

All I was checking was that you voted Leave and still think you made the right choice. As opposed to voting Remain but were now Leave (like Piers Morgan), or voted Leave, but were now Remain like Borobuddah. You didn't need to go any further just yet.

Even in that it isn't simple. Piers Morgan doesn't think we should Leave. He thinks that because Leave won, we should Leave. That's not the same as thinking that Leave is the best option.

As an aside, anyone that doesn't think that is wrong because that is how democracy works and I would say it is the number one problem for us being in the position we have found ourselves in.

 

[Lefty]

And you haven’t answered the one question I have repeatedly asked.

you tried to grill me on the other thread without sharing your own view, promised to give it and haven’t done so.

forget the game playing and give it along with your view of Brexit voters being illogical, quite simple really.

That is the problem, it really isn't that simple. It's complicated and fascinating.

I'm not playing games either. I'd really like a mature debate.

 

[Lefty]

Even in that it isn't simple. Piers Morgan doesn't think we should Leave. He thinks that because Leave won, we should Leave. That's not the same as thinking that Leave is the best option.

As an aside, anyone that doesn't think that is wrong because that is how democracy works and I would say it is the number one problem for us being in the position we have found ourselves in.

Yes, Morgan thinks we should leave because he believes we should honour the referendum. There are people who voted Remain who now think we should Leave, because they have changed their minds on the merits of the choice. There aren't many though, so I couldn't think of someone like that to cite instead of Morgan.

 

[Borobuddah]

I have not become a remainer, the vote was leave and I respect that

 

[Lefty]

I have not become a remainer, the vote was leave and I respect that

My apologies, I thought you said you wished you'd voted Remain now?

 

[Borobuddah]

My views don’t change the result, which I have to respect
In any case, I was reflecting with hindsight

 

[Lefty]

My views don’t change the result, which I have to respect

There is no changing the result, we are out. That should make discussion about the decision people made easier, I'd have thought.

I'd just like a small number of people who voted Leave, for a variety of reasons and from a range of political viewpoints, to be prepared to defend their reasoning in a little bit of depth. You won, remember, it should mean you are fairly relaxed about whether your reasoning was right, since a majority agreed with you and the wisdom of crowds, democracy and all that. You're the victors, I'm one of the vanquished. You can afford to humour me a little, can't you?

This isn't even mainly about brexit, it's about the thought process we should apply. Then we should compare it to the thought process we did apply and hope it fits. In the end, you will decide by your own metric whether you were 'stupid' or not, not I.

This is not about having different values. I've been on the board for I guess around 20 years. In that time I can only really think of three topics that I've really got narked about. Brexit is one, clearly. The Iraq War is another and Margaret Thatcher, especially with regard to the Miners Strike is the other. I do get involved in politics discussions, but not to the point of getting over heated usually and it is the same with religion/atheism threads.

You won't ever have seen me getting angry at opposing views on any footy threads, have you?

So using a football analogy, let's say I like the Boro to play 4-4-2, but you like 3-5-2 or you think the Pep Guardiola way is the best style of football to adopt while I like Klopp or Mourinho's best. Now, we have a common goal in wanting to see our club be successful , we just have different views of how to get there. If I were to say your preference, because it is not mine, makes you stupid, well, that makes me an utter t*t. And in fact I'm the stupid one, not you.

That's all you have to do really.

1. Discuss and define together what 'stupid' means.
2. State your own values and aims for brexit.
3. Agree what constitutes good and bad thinking processes.
4. Evaluate your application of these techniques to your referendum decision.

2 might have to be revisited after 3.

5. Decide whether you were in fact stupid or just rational and reasoned with different values to Lefty. In which case Lefty will have shown himself to be a pimply faced, arrogant, patronising git and he'll have to acknowledge that.

Seems like a low bar for you, but a very high bar for me, with a delicious gloating reward for you if you're right.

Go on, give it a go. What else are you doing this summer?

 

[HarryVegas]

Wow, this is dragging out. I was remain and would still be. Unfortunately it is a lost cause and we are now collectively so far down the river that it's over our ears and rising. All I'll say is that blaming parliamentary 'remainers' for this clusterf**k is more than a bit rich. The leaders of the Leave campaign lied and lied about how easy it was all going to be. If you chose to believe them and then looked on aghast as the inevitable happened - and it was always inevitable - then that's not the fault of remainers.

 

[Lefty]

Wow, this is dragging out. I was remain and would still be. Unfortunately it is a lost cause and we are now collectively so far down the river that it's over our ears and rising. All I'll say is that blaming parliamentary 'remainers' for this clusterf**k is more than a bit rich. The leaders of the Leave campaign lied and lied about how easy it was all going to be. If you chose to believe them and then looked on aghast as the inevitable happened - and it was always inevitable - then that's not the fault of remainers.

Out of interest Harry, when you think back to 2016, how informed do you think you were?

 

[Cooper671]

I’ve added many times (that sometimes goes ignored) is remain ran a terrible campaign. It was very condescending and that lost votes. The do as we say as we know best (whether correct or not) is never gonna wash with people already annoyed with the status quo. As it was a Tory government sending that message it made it even worse and drove votes to leave

 

[Lefty]

I’ve added many times (that sometimes goes ignored) is remain ran a terrible campaign. It was very condescending and that lost votes. The do as we say as we know best (whether correct or not) is never gonna wash with people already annoyed with the status quo. As it was a Tory government sending that message it made it even worse and drove votes to leave

The question of who ran the better, more persuasive campaign is not necessarily the same as whether leaving the EU is better than staying in.

O J was found not guilty because Johnny Cochrane was better than Marcia Clarke, not because he was innocent. The decision was wrong because he was guilty and having Johnny Cochrane present a better case, or Marcia Clarke a bad case did not make him innocent.

 

[Cooper671]

But he has never been found guilty (except in a civil trial) so you can’t say he was guilty. Darden made the mistake in the trial with the glove. Don’t think I don’t think he is innocent I don’t, but he was never found guilty so I can’t agree with your example

 

[HarryVegas]

Out of interest Harry, when you think back to 2016, how informed do you think you were?

I don't think any of us were informed enough. But what I did know was how untrustworthy and ruthless the USA are when they have the stronger hand in any kind of deal. You only have to look back to a little thing like the development of Concorde (yes I am that old) and their obstructive and petty behaviour around that.

None of us had enough facts but then you don't need a diagram or a mathematical formula to know what happens when you walk blithely over the edge of a cliff, with a mixture of the mad eyed and the on-the-make telling you that you don't need a silly thing like a parachute and that all the experts are wrong.

 

[Cambsred]

But he has never been found guilty (except in a civil trial) so you can’t say he was guilty. Darden made the mistake in the trial with the glove. Don’t think I don’t think he is innocent I don’t, but he was never found guilty so I can’t agree with your example

Almost feels like a perfect example. If you are suggesting the remain campaign was flawed and the incorrect verdict may have been given. You might not agree with the decision, or how it was made- but the outcome is what it is.

 

[Lefty]

But he has never been found guilty (except in a civil trial) so you can’t say he was guilty. Darden made the mistake in the trial with the glove. Don’t think I don’t think he is innocent I don’t, but he was never found guilty so I can’t agree with your example

You're fascinating, genuinely. I wasn't going to ask you to be one of the small number of Leave voters to debate whether you were stupid or not as your primary reason, getting rid of Cameron, wasn't that well thought through, but you may be ideal in other respects. Fancy joining Borobuddah and Boromike in a mature reasonable discussion in the near future?

 

[Lefty]

I don't think any of us were informed enough.

None of us had enough facts but then you don't need a diagram or a mathematical formula to know what happens when you walk blithely over the edge of a cliff, with a mixture of the mad eyed and the on-the-make telling you that you don't need a silly thing like a parachute and that all the experts are wrong.

If it is true that none of us had enough facts, which I do not disagree with, does it therefore not follow that any decision we arrived at was equally valid?