FAO Lefty

Can I take this to mean you are interested in a meaningful open discussion on the decision making process we apply?
 
I am interested to hear what you were offering?

“Judgement of me being patronising, insulting, arrogant etc. really ought to be reserved until people hear my arguments in full, because it is just possible I am privy to information or knowledge that others aren't. Is that a reasonable point?“
 
Borobuddah said:
When can we expect to hear your arguments in full?
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Not sure.

One of the tricky things about this forum is the tendency for threads to veer off all over the place. That’s ok if relevant but often they don’t stay relevant.

Perhaps if I can find three or four people who represent a spread of political leanings as well as voting Leave.

For this to be worthwhile there needs to be at least a couple who haven’t changed their mind. They need to be reasonable people most of the time and also posters who engage regularly on here.

I’m not one of those who keeps tabs on posters on here by and large, so I’d need help on that.

Obviously, you’ve nominated yourself I hope?
 
I’m not sure what you are on about, some kind of socio- political experiment?

I was looking to hear your views in full, as you promised?
 
Borobuddah said:
I’m not sure what you are on about, some kind of socio- political experiment?

I was looking to hear your views in full, as you promised?
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I say every single person who voted Leave, without exception, was stupid.

This means several things. I need to define 'stupid' for a start and get your agreement it is not unreasonable. Then, since it is impossible for me to go through every Leave voters reasoning individually and everyone has their own values and priorities, I can only do a small sample. Since there are many different reasons Leave voters have cited for their choice and people from all parts of the political spectrum voted Leave, it seems logical for that sample to represent this diversity. Do you agree?

So, you are a Leave voter, politically on the Left, with reasoning borne out of that ideology and values, plus you've since reflected and changed your mind. So to cover more bases I could do with also having some on the Right and who haven't changed their minds.

Then, hopefully, I can show each of you, that you were 'stupid' on your own terms and values, rather than on mine. Then, maybe, these demonstrations can be applied to others.

The problem is finding people prepared to engage reasonably who fit the bill. I'm not really one who keeps track of who is where politically on here, preferring to just tackle the points raised on a thread on it's own merit.
 
I’m not sure that such an exercise should be conducted on here, what would the point be, especially if your intentions are just to ‘prove’ leave voters are/were ‘stupid?

I have stated my views, my reflection on them and my conclusion.

I thought you were going to state your views fully, maybe I misunderstood somehow?

“Judgement of me being patronising, insulting, arrogant etc. really ought to be reserved until people hear my arguments in full, because it is just possible I am privy to information or knowledge that others aren't. Is that a reasonable point?“

I have reserved my judgement, as requested, now over to you
 
What arrogant twaddle. When you have been accused of being patronising, insulting and arrogant it is because of things like this. You don't have the credentials to be undertaking these sort of studies with any sort of validity. Why would anyone take part in order to be told they are stupid by the self-appointed high and mighty? I've never heard such delusion.

For a start, you aren't going to get a large enough sample to represent all Leave voters. You would need thousands of people to come close to a representative sample, not three or four. To think you can set out with such a hypothesis makes me think you are stupid; there's your baseline definition. This is as representative of the Dunning-Kruger effect than anything I've ever witnessed.

Secondly, making a decision on politics, with any sort of reasoning, isn't stupid. Voters can't control what politicians do, all they can do is make a decision based on assumptions on a limited choice of options.

Thirdly, to prove that over half the country is stupid the only conclusion would be that everyone is stupid. I presume you are going to apply the same rules to Remainers? Although it means that your whole test is nonsense because while everyone has the potential to make stupid decisions, not everyone is stupid.
 
Borobuddah said:
I’m not sure that such an exercise should be conducted on here, what would the point be, especially if your intentions are just to ‘prove’ leave voters are/were ‘stupid?

I have stated my views, my reflection on them and my conclusion.

I thought you were going to state your views fully, maybe I misunderstood somehow?

“Judgement of me being patronising, insulting, arrogant etc. really ought to be reserved until people hear my arguments in full, because it is just possible I am privy to information or knowledge that others aren't. Is that a reasonable point?“

I have reserved my judgement, as requested, now over to you
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My intentions are not just to prove that leave voters are stupid, my intention is to show you that I'm also stupid. However it is more than that, because it isn't the bad (in my opinion) decision on brexit that matters most, it is the failed process of reasoning that led to it. That is more important because a flawed process means repeated bad decisions become much more likely. I'd like to apply this not only to brexit, but to the Iraq War and the Covid-19 response.

Most importantly, the board, much like the country and indeed the world, has become much more polarised in the last few years. This board is better than the old one just now, so perhaps there is a chance just now for people to at least understand the others point of view, which could dial down the toxicity. I actually think we can also learn something about ourselves. One thing I've learnt about this board over the last 25 years or so is that there is always someone more knowledgeable than you on here.

What's more, if I'm wrong, much as I might not like it, I can't be an advocate of critical thinking and twist about applying it to myself.

So, to sum up, my intentions are simply no more ambitious than to show every one who disagreed with me on brexit is a d*ck, do it so nicely that even brexiters have no choice than to admit it, to re-establish the enlightenment, bring this board together in peace and harmony so that we can all go out into the wider world and show others the error of their ways, thus ensuring that everyone makes much better political choices in future. Nothing more than that.

Unless I think of something.

All I need are a few people to doubt I can and put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.
 
boromike85 said:
What arrogant twaddle. When you have been accused of being patronising, insulting and arrogant it is because of things like this. You don't have the credentials to be undertaking these sort of studies with any sort of validity. Why would anyone take part in order to be told they are stupid by the self-appointed high and mighty? I've never heard such delusion.

For a start, you aren't going to get a large enough sample to represent all Leave voters. You would need thousands of people to come close to a representative sample, not three or four. To think you can set out with such a hypothesis makes me think you are stupid; there's your baseline definition. This is as representative of the Dunning-Kruger effect than anything I've ever witnessed.

Secondly, making a decision on politics, with any sort of reasoning, isn't stupid. Voters can't control what politicians do, all they can do is make a decision based on assumptions on a limited choice of options.

Thirdly, to prove that over half the country is stupid the only conclusion would be that everyone is stupid. I presume you are going to apply the same rules to Remainers? Although it means that your whole test is nonsense because while everyone has the potential to make stupid decisions, not everyone is stupid.
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Looks like Mike is up for it.

Did you vote Leave, Mike?

Are you politically usually on the Right?
 
So your intentions are not just to prove that leave voters are stupid but “to show every one who disagreed with me on brexit is a d*ck“

I see contradictions here. Stop playing games and say what your views are in full.

and good luck getting volunteers, you’ll need it. As Mike asked are you qualified to conduct such experiments?
 
Borobuddah said:
So your intentions are not just to prove that leave voters are stupid but “to show every one who disagreed with me on brexit is a d*ck“

I see contradictions here. Stop playing games and say what your views are in full.

and good luck getting volunteers, you’ll need it. As Mike asked are you qualified to conduct such experiments?
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No qualifications whatsoever.

You're not backing out, are you?
 
I was never in. I said on the other thread some time ago, if you were just after an argument, count me out.
 
Lefty said:
Looks like Mike is up for it.

Did you vote Leave, Mike?

Are you politically usually on the Right?
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No. I am on the left.

I don't need to be involved though. I can watch and then find out I am stupid after you have proved that all Leave voters are stupid.

Lefty said:
Most importantly, the board, much like the country and indeed the world, has become much more polarised in the last few years. This board is better than the old one just now, so perhaps there is a chance just now for people to at least understand the others point of view, which could dial down the toxicity.
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95% of the toxicity has come from people like you calling people that vote differently to you stupid so I am not confident that your experiment will achieve what you want. In fact it looks like you are cobbling some logic traps together to say "ha, I told you that you were all stupid all along". I have seen at least 100 comments since the referendum saying "I have yet to see a single argument for Brexit" which is b***ks. Is what they meant is "I have ignored anything I disagree with and if you bring anything up I'll make a joke about blue passports, racist old people will soon be dead or sunlit uplands".

I have said many times on here that pre-referendum the discussion was pretty civil. It was quite interesting because people weren't voting/arguing for or against the usual parties so while it was a binary choice it wasn't polarised and it was conversational discussion. As soon as the result was announced the remainers banded together, acted like children and started name calling Brexit voters and labelling them all gullible, racist idiots and stopped listening or wanting to understand why "all the stupid people have shot themselves in the foot". There was an outright refusal to listen and understand to why people voted for brexit.
 
boromike85 said:
No. I am on the left.

I don't need to be involved though. I can watch and then find out I am stupid after you have proved that all Leave voters are stupid.



95% of the toxicity has come from people like you calling people that vote differently to you stupid so I am not confident that your experiment will achieve what you want. In fact it looks like you are cobbling some logic traps together to say "ha, I told you that you were all stupid all along". I have seen at least 100 comments since the referendum saying "I have yet to see a single argument for Brexit" which is b***ks. Is what they meant is "I have ignored anything I disagree with and if you bring anything up I'll make a joke about blue passports, racist old people will soon be dead or sunlit uplands".

I have said many times on here that pre-referendum the discussion was pretty civil. It was quite interesting because people weren't voting/arguing for or against the usual parties so while it was a binary choice it wasn't polarised and it was conversational discussion. As soon as the result was announced the remainers banded together, acted like children and started name calling Brexit voters and labelling them all gullible, racist idiots and stopped listening or wanting to understand why "all the stupid people have shot themselves in the foot". There was an outright refusal to listen and understand to why people voted for brexit.
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But you voted Leave and still think you made the correct choice?
 
Lefty said:
But you voted Leave and still think you made the correct choice?
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That is too simplistic a question because there are multiple variables that have changed things that I couldn't foresee at the time. But that doesn't mean that it was wrong to vote Leave. If you are asking:
1. Could Brexit have been successful if everyone had acted in good faith, then yes it could have been.
2. Do I think the government have done well in their implementation of Brexit? Then no, but they have been constrained by the remainer majority in Parliament.
3. Do I think remainers are the stupid ones because by refusing to acknowledge that the country voted for Brexit and doing their utmost to stop it they have forced the government to do the only thing they could get to over the line which resulted in a hard brexit, the last thing that remainers would have wanted, and another 5 years of Tory rule, then yes.
4. Did I ever expect us to be in a worse position after voting for Brexit? Then yes, it was evident that there would be short-term downsides but in the long term there would be no major difference between being in the EU and being outside of it economically.
5. Have my reasons for voting Brexit changed? No.

All of the negatives of Brexit could easily have been mitigated by co-operation. Firstly our own politicians putting aside their differences and doing what the country had decided, the biggest being stop talking about remain being an option and think of the best way to leave. Secondly, co-operation with the EU. Be clear and spell out the default position as something to avoid, but still a legitimate option. Lay down the baseline relationship and build from there as if we were a 3rd nation. The way round we approached it was farcical and it left the EU in total control.
 
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