f1 monza

Chris_Boro said:
It's just not adding anymore excitement than the normal qualifications with much greater risk.

All the action is at the start where it's the only real chance to gain places, if it goes on then sooner or later, someone will wipe out half the field trying something daft from the line.
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Which liberty media would probably like as it 'mixes things up' and leads to a race with different results.

Other sports don't do this. It is meant to be the pinnacle of motor racing engineering and driving.

I'm really against any gimmicks to try and engineer mixed up grids.

There are plenty of racing formulas with that sort of rule set.

F1 qualifying and race winners records go back 70 years. They are messing with that as Mercedes and RedBull are too good and too consistent. There has been a period of dominance from Merc, and as perennial FIA golden child Ferrari can't even cheat their way to the top table in the last couple of seasons, changes need to be made to spice up the show apparently.

I just can't get my head around what it is meant to be achieving.
 
I think they had to act to stop f1 turning into formula Mercedes ( McLaren Williams merc Aston Martin all powered by Mercedes)

as other engine manufacturers are starting to lose faith

Honda leaving Renault changing to using their race name ( prob a pr move to avoid Renault being associated with failure) and other engine manufacturers stalling on entering.

so really after Ferrari there really isn’t much left.

BMW
Ford
Audi

just don’t want to know.
 
zorro_mfc said:
Renault changing to using their race name ( prob a pr move to avoid Renault being associated with failure)
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I was just summising with this so I googled and it’s 100% right as this quote shows…

Rossi said the problem is that F1 is a sport focused mainly on sporting performance, which in many ways does not align with Renault's road car operations. "Formula 1 was so far removed from our commercial products that we wondered whether it really helped in selling Clios or Meganes," Rossi said.
 
zorro_mfc said:
I think they had to act to stop f1 turning into formula Mercedes

as other engine manufacturers are starting to lose faith

Honda leaving Renault changing to using their race name ( prob a pr move to avoid Renault being associated with failure) and other engine manufacturers stalling on entering.

so really after Ferrari there really isn’t much left.

BMW
Ford
Audi

just don’t want to know.
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There's a rumour doing the rounds that the Albon / Williams thing is to do with VW having an upcoming stake in Williams and running RedBull power trains badged as VW engines (or Lamborghini/Bentley/Audi/Bugatti maybe?). Probably all two & two equals five stuff because of Jost Capito, but it does seem an odd deal from the outside that there may be more too in the long run.

And it shouldn't be up to the governing body to alter the sports formats and rules as one team is so much stronger, other than maybe some FFP type rules to even the playing field.

But then again, Ferrari get their $80 million 'special historic interest' payment or whatever it is these days, so it is hard to make it an even playing field on that front too.

It is up to the other teams to catch up, the Bundesliga haven't done anything to level up Bayern with the other teams.

It will be interesting to see who does a better job of interpreting the new aero rules. I suspect we could be in for a period of RedBull domination again, they now have a competitive engine (until the turbo hybrids are dropped at least) and are always very strong on aero.

But I presume you will have a much more tolerant view of this, as it isn't Mercedes or Hamilton, the same as you never posted anything critical when Ferrari and RedBull dominated in the past.
 
zorro_mfc said:
To be fair the new style three tier quali shoot out is a pretty new thing as well.

As old school quali was over 2 days or then a one hour session.
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Oh yes, they've always changed the qually format, even having pre-qualifying at times with the bigger grid, but it has always been the single one lap pace fastest lap that got you on the front row for the Grand Prix start. It is a skill and part of the set-up equation to do that.
 
zorro_mfc said:
I was just summising with this so I googled and it’s 100% right as this quote shows…

Rossi said the problem is that F1 is a sport focused mainly on sporting performance, which in many ways does not align with Renault's road car operations. "Formula 1 was so far removed from our commercial products that we wondered whether it really helped in selling Clios or Meganes," Rossi said.
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Yep, they had recently re-launched Alpine as a car brand too, so it sort of made sense. They also have Nissan in their group who still make 'sports cars' you could say, so they could have rebranded to them I suppose. When RedBull ran Renault they were badged as Infinity as well weren't they? But that might have been when they hated each other and Christian didn't want their name associated with them.
 
Caesium137 said:
There's a rumour doing the rounds that the Albon / Williams thing is to do with VW having an upcoming stake in Williams and running RedBull power trains badged as VW engines (or Lamborghini/Bentley/Audi/Bugatti maybe?). Probably all two & two equals five stuff because of Jost Capito, but it does seem an odd deal from the outside that there may be more too in the long run.

And it shouldn't be up to the governing body to alter the sports formats and rules as one team is so much stronger, other than maybe some FFP type rules to even the playing field.

But then again, Ferrari get their $80 million 'special historic interest' payment or whatever it is these days, so it is hard to make it an even playing field on that front too.

It is up to the other teams to catch up, the Bundesliga haven't done anything to level up Bayern with the other teams.

It will be interesting to see who does a better job of interpreting the new aero rules. I suspect we could be in for a period of RedBull domination again, they now have a competitive engine (until the turbo hybrids are dropped at least) and are always very strong on aero.

But I presume you will have a much more tolerant view of this, as it isn't Mercedes or Hamilton, the same as you never posted anything critical when Ferrari and RedBull dominated in the past.
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We have never seen one engine manufacturer rule f1 like Mercedes do now. I think for the first time in history Ferrari are even looking at their f1 future and that would be a chasmic thing in F1.

stop making everything about Hamilton or personalities. This about the sport and how f1 is losing its appeal among other motor sport teams look at haas he left gene haas mr motorsport left saying he just couldn’t compete in f1.

so we have oligarchs and sugary drink companies filling the void left by motor manufacturers.
 
Ag
Caesium137 said:
Oh yes, they've always changed the qually format, even having pre-qualifying at times with the bigger grid, but it has always been the single one lap pace fastest lap that got you on the front row for the Grand Prix start. It is a skill and part of the set-up equation to do that.
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Again the refuelling era all but made that irrelevant as no one knew who had what ( I hated that era) but in single fuel era then yes.
 
zorro_mfc said:
stop making everything about Hamilton or personalities. This about the sport and how f1 is losing its appeal among other motor sport teams look at haas he left gene haas mr motorsport left saying he just couldn’t compete in f1.
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I'm not, you and the FIA have clearly had an issue with Mercedes dominating. Whilst I agree it isn't ideal and people may switch off, the sport should come first. If you have derived a set of rules and someone consistently does a better job do you change the rules to make lesser teams and sportsmen more competitive?

Should Federer have a smaller racquet?

There are plenty of fixed formula racing series with weight handicaps, reverse grids, single chassis or single engine formulas. Formula 1 has never been that.

Haas can't compete because they are not competitive, half the grid has been like that for as long as I've watched since the late eighties.

That's sport, I've just watched Chelsea play and I'm fairly ticked off we can't compete at that level and I'm sure Gibbo thinks what's the point trying anymore after days like today. But you keep going.
 
Caesium137 said:
I'm not, you and the FIA have clearly had an issue with Mercedes dominating. Whilst I agree it isn't ideal and people may switch off, the sport should come first. If you have derived a set of rules and someone consistently does a better job do you change the rules to make lesser teams and sportsmen more competitive?

Should Federer have a smaller racquet?

There are plenty of fixed formula racing series with weight handicaps, reverse grids, single chassis or single engine formulas. Formula 1 has never been that.

Haas can't compete because they are not competitive, half the grid has been like that for as long as I've watched since the late eighties.

That's sport, I've just watched Chelsea play and I'm fairly ticked off we can't compete at that level and I'm sure Gibbo thinks what's the point trying anymore after days like today. But you keep going.
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I Mean Mercedes the engine maker not just the F1 team. Formula Mercedes is not healthy for the sport.

hopefully 2022 means racing with more than 2 cars on the grid.
 
zorro_mfc said:
Ag

Again the refuelling era all but made that irrelevant as no one knew who had what ( I hated that era) but in single fuel era then yes.
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And it was dropped as most fans hated it as whoever refuelled faster normally won the race, hence Flavio removing the fuel filters and roasting Max's Dad.

The cars are too big, too heavy, too complex and too expensive.

They should have addressed this a while ago, but as you rightly say the huge costs in developing new stuff are a huge pill to swallow. Manufacturers who have already put hundreds of £millions into developing these systems shouldn't have to pay out again as Porsche only want to run a cheap flat six or Cosworth want to use an off the shelf V8.

The new engine rules definitely need to be cheaper, and the FIA should definitely setup a deal with an outside manufacturer. Non manufacturer teams should be able to buy an off the shelf power train/ERS/Gearbox/E-dif etc and go racing.

The present system where by the bigger teams effectively all have B or even C teams to bolster their income, assert influence and keep all the best young drivers in their programs need looking at too.
 
zorro_mfc said:
I think they had to act to stop f1 turning into formula Mercedes ( McLaren Williams merc Aston Martin all powered by Mercedes)

as other engine manufacturers are starting to lose faith

Honda leaving Renault changing to using their race name ( prob a pr move to avoid Renault being associated with failure) and other engine manufacturers stalling on entering.

so really after Ferrari there really isn’t much left.

BMW
Ford
Audi

just don’t want to know.
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Not sure if this is connected but a few of those are looking to join WEC. They have a similar issue with only Toyota competing in the LMP-H class for a good few years. The new hypercar class has attracted loads of interest.

I know you bang on about formula Mercedes but I honestly don't think it's that bad. Ferrari are always going to be around and they supply engines and Renault do still exist just in another name.
 
zorro_mfc said:
I Mean Mercedes the engine maker not just the F1 team. Formula Mercedes is not healthy for the sport.

hopefully 2022 means racing with more than 2 cars on the grid.
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I don't know, the two closest challengers have both run different engines. It wasn't like when we had two tyre manufacturers and at certain tracks one always seemed to be much better than the other.

You could argue the strength of the Mercedes engine has got Racing Point and Williams some pretty good results since 2014 and will now see McLaren competitive again. Very much to Mercedes detriment today I might add too!
 
Caesium137 said:
And it was dropped as most fans hated it as whoever refuelled faster normally won the race, hence Flavio removing the fuel filters and roasting Max's Dad.

The cars are too big, too heavy, too complex and too expensive.

They should have addressed this a while ago, but as you rightly say the huge costs in developing new stuff are a huge pill to swallow. Manufacturers who have already put hundreds of £millions into developing these systems shouldn't have to pay out again as Porsche only want to run a cheap flat six or Cosworth want to use an off the shelf V8.

The new engine rules definitely need to be cheaper, and the FIA should definitely setup a deal with an outside manufacturer. Non manufacturer teams should be able to buy an off the shelf power train/ERS/Gearbox/E-dif etc and go racing.

The present system where by the bigger teams effectively all have B or even C teams to bolster their income, assert influence and keep all the best young drivers in their programs need looking at too.
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100%
 
I just hate to see talented drivers like Llando Norris who know they have zero
Chance of winning a race regardless where they are this is new in f1 as reliability now is basically 99% so really only pit failures create that jeopardy.
 
zorro_mfc said:
I just hate to see talented drivers like Llando Norris who know they have zero
Chance of winning a race regardless where they are this is new in f1 as reliability now is basically 99% so really only pit failures create that jeopardy.
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Agree, but there are dozens of drivers who should have been winners or even world champions who never get there.

I assume McLaren will be very strong next year, and if the new Ferrari engine isn't the step up they claim I can see McLaren being the 'third' team from now on. Alpine look much improved too.

I'm quite excited for next season.

Lando, Charles, George and I suppose Max too are obviously the future.

Kimi will be gone, and I assume See and Lewis we follow on in a year or two, probably Checo and Danni Ric shortly after.

I'm just hoping the best and the brightest get to step up, rather than Zhou because he brings $30 million in Chinese sponsorship.
 
I'd also add racing wise........

I'd probably try to tweak the pit lane entries and up the speed limits a little (safely of course. Also possibly enforce two stops or three tyre compounds or whatever, to stop the current pretty much universal one stop and conserve tyres and fuel 'racing' we have now.

It shouldn't be seen as something out of the ordinary and a bit of an exciting change when someone pits for softs and drives faster to overtake someone else. That should be the norm!
 
Porsche, Audi, BMW and yes even Ford will be on the grid before the end of the decade.

That's my prediction anyway. I've read that feelers have been put out with regards to developing bio fuels instead of electric hybrid powered engines which all the big manufacturers are very interested as it's more cost effective than just focusing on electric only.
 
Caesium137 said:
So two races one Saturday, one Sunday at 50% race distance half points for both, with two separate qualifying sessions then?

That is the only way for the teams to assess it as being worth the risk/reward surely?

Which will have added costs when they are forcing teams to reduce them you would think.

They are messing with the historical standings of the current drivers for almost no reward. I just don't get it.
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Yeah I really don’t agree with any of it personally, the format is fine how it is. And it’s just wrong to keep trying to pull the fastest teams back because of their success. That’s how sport works

If they want to attract new fans then not having all of the races behind a paywall, or £500 to attend in person might be a start
 
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