Do ElectricCars have an Air Pollution Problem?

Norman_Conquest

Well-known member
An interesting article in The Guardian that states that heavier cars and the particulates they produce by friction mean we could sacrifice cleaner air on the altar of zero carbon emissions.

Electric cars reduce engine pollution to zero, but their brakes and tyres still rely on friction to work. That friction breaks down materials, which can then end up in the environment.

Surely all the can be said about ICE vehicles.

The full article is in the link.

 
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An interesting article in The Guardian that states that heavier cars and the particulates they produce by friction mean we could sacrifice cleaner air on the altar of zero carbon emissions.

Electric cars reduce engine pollution to zero, but their brakes and tyres still rely on friction to work. That friction breaks down materials, which can then end up in the environment.

Surely all the can be said about ICE vehicles.

The full article is in the link.

I understand the tyre bit due to weight, but that being said the modern trend for SUVs is the major problem here.

I don't get the brake dust thing. Given EV use regenerative to slow down and massively reduce strain on the brakes
 
I understand the tyre bit due to weight, but that being said the modern trend for SUVs is the major problem here.

I don't get the brake dust thing. Given EV use regenerative to slow down and massively reduce strain on the brakes
I think what they are saying is all cars produce particulate matter from braking systems, including EV's but at a reduced rate.
 
An interesting article in The Guardian that states that heavier cars and the particulates they produce by friction mean we could sacrifice cleaner air on the altar of zero carbon emissions.

Electric cars reduce engine pollution to zero, but their brakes and tyres still rely on friction to work. That friction breaks down materials, which can then end up in the environment.

Surely all the can be said about ICE vehicles.

The full article is in the link.

Ton
 
So they've found more types of vehicle pollution, but does it matter that much compared to shipping and air travel? Automated car driving systems would provide the most efficient way of using tyres and brakes most effectively.

Mistakes will always be made. We were nudged towards diesel based on CO2 emissions alone, so it may well be the case that in another 20 years there will be another round of 'Whoops...' based on what is thought to be good practice now.
 
So they've found more types of vehicle pollution, but does it matter that much compared to shipping and air travel? Automated car driving systems would provide the most efficient way of using tyres and brakes most effectively.

Mistakes will always be made. We were nudged towards diesel based on CO2 emissions alone, so it may well be the case that in another 20 years there will be another round of 'Whoops...' based on what is thought to be good practice now.
Yes, it does matter re localised pollution and PMs. As the linked article points out, other things being equal it's weight rather than fuel source which is the issue - heavier vehicles = more PM. EVs only produce more PM if they are heavier. Currently, they are, but it's still early days.
 
Brake systems are developing too. I'm (quite heavily) invested in this company, who produce state of the art carbon fibre ceramic brake discs, which reduce brake dust, reduce weight, improve braking performance, replace a "dirty" steel alternative. Their success has been built at the premium end of the market (sports cars etc) but now they are winning more and more contracts from EV makers (Tesla and GM being the biggest).

 
Reduce speed limits and people will brake less
I don't necessarily aree with this. In town yes, everywhere near me as a 20 zone and when I'm in an urban area at 30 now it feels like a lot.. On a motorway no, if you keep a safe stopping distance and anticapite traffic build up you should hardly use your brakes at all
 
I don't necessarily aree with this. In town yes, everywhere near me as a 20 zone and when I'm in an urban area at 30 now it feels like a lot.. On a motorway no, if you keep a safe stopping distance and anticapite traffic build up you should hardly use your brakes at all
You could tier the speed limits at junctions when coming off so people actually reduce speed rather than brake
 
Reduce speed limits and people will brake less
I agree with reducing speed limits, but doubt that it will have much of an effect on braking. A lot of drivers are in such a tear-arsing rush that they are constantly acccelerating then having to brake when there's no need. They'll tailgate, then have to dab their brakes when the car in front slows, charge up to roundabouts when all they have to do is ease off the accelerator earlier and then may not have to even brake or race into bends at their limit and have to brake again. OK, it will cost a couple of seconds, but is it necessary? It's poor driving as far as I'm concerned.
 
The answer to the OP is right at the bottom of the article - which few ever get to (pasted below for help)
In short it’s nothing to worry about and the holistic benefits of EV are, according to this science, still considerable.

The verdict

There is no doubt that the car industry still has pollution questions to answer. As the end of the internal combustion engine advances, expect more focus on particulate pollution from tyre wear, as it is one of the few sources of pollution while the car is in use. That could offer big health benefits for humans, flora and fauna.

It is certainly the case that ever heavier cars almost certainly produce more tyre particulates. Electric cars are – for now – heavier still than equivalents. But even so, tyre pollution appears roughly comparable between petrol, diesel and electric cars. The other benefits of switching to electric cars – most notably lower carbon pollution – are huge.
 
The increased use of EVs will also have an effect on the longevity of road surfaces. EVs generate maximum torque from zero and this combined with their greater weight will cause increased wear at road junctions. I expect it will be something that will be addressed through road fund license. There will probably be a point in the future where EVs will pay more Road Tax than ICE.

If people haven't looked recently some of the new EVs are becoming smaller and cheaper. The new Renault 5 in particular could be a tipping point for quite a few people (me included) to go electric at least for my every day car.
 
An interesting article in The Guardian that states that heavier cars and the particulates they produce by friction mean we could sacrifice cleaner air on the altar of zero carbon emissions.

Electric cars reduce engine pollution to zero, but their brakes and tyres still rely on friction to work. That friction breaks down materials, which can then end up in the environment.

Surely all the can be said about ICE vehicles.

The full article is in the link.

The two lines after the headline mention exploring myths around EV's so that kind of says a lot, but articles like this still end up peddling nonsense.

The article mentions that richer/ more modern cities have had air quality significantly improved since EV's came out, so there is that.

Like the article later says (after the misleading headline clickbait) EV's don't rely on friction to brake, but they don't give much detail about true use or how this is done. 99% of the braking is by the motor, if you're driving normally, and the motor is a sealed unit and brushless unit or it's using induction, none of these have friction with forward or stopping momentum, other than the inner bearing which is probably also a sealed unit with extremely minimal resistance. It's basically like magnets, which don't touch. From my 3 years experience I would say a set of EV brakes could last the life of the car, which is what 150k-200k miles expected, for most decent cars? They're probably more likely to need replacing due to rust, rather than use. So if a set of pads last 30k miles, and an EV even used as much as 80% less, then they're theoretically lasting 5x as long.

It's funny mind, as when I first got my second EV the braking was a lot more responsive at slow speeds, but I think they've changed the software so it uses regenerative braking even more now. I don't like it as much for this at slow speed to be honest, but efficiency and batter range have increased over the two years, so I'm ok with it. The EV before had 3 different modes of regen braking, which I preferred.

Sure, EV's do have more weight at the moment, like for like in range (not in power), but the reason for this is the batteries are heavy, and people think they need larger batteries than they actually do. I think people will eventually come around to the idea that smaller batteries and faster charging are the answer for most people. People seem to be very slow understanding this idea though, even a lot of EV owners, so it's a while away yet. Once this happens weight and tyres will be like for like, or better.

It's mad thinking about tyre particles now though (change the tyres if they're that bad?), compared to what ICE cars, oil refineries and power stations are kicking out, and have been doing for centuries. But the greener the grid goes, the greener EV's go, and it's only going one way. Plus we're still in the early days of EV's I suppose. In places of high emissions/ people/ bad air quality, like cities, speeds are low, so overall the wear or weight make less of a difference, as there is much less drag (the enemy of the EV, as it can't recover that energy back). Basically this means EV's are even better and more efficient for high pollution areas where as ICE are worse due to stop start/ idling and being inefficient at slow speeds etc. The EV is basically better the slower you're going, ICE cars are made to be more efficient at higher speeds.

In 5-10 years we really should have driverless cars/ taxi's (EV's), for common routes in cities etc, if the public understand it and the car makers can make enough money out of it. Doing this means we will be able to get away with smaller batteries and smaller cars for half the journeys which only need space for one or two people. It may mean the end of a lot of people "needing" their own car or second car, and will probably kill off buses, which are extremely inefficient (ice or EV) for the average passenger numbers. You won't have as many people doing 99 x 20 mile trips in a 300 mile range car, v the 1 x 400 mile round trip they do one weekend where they could own something more specific for their commute and hire something specific for longer journeys. Of course there could also be dedicated long range EV's or public transport doing the more regular routes up and down motorways and a-roads, feeding into more localised shorter range EV hubs etc. The tech is already there for the long trips, it's easy for driverless, but once that is accepted (people problem, not a tech problem) then it will move into busier towns and so on.
 
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