Disposable vapes ban

It’s Rishi’s equivalent of putting your plastic bottles in the recycling bin

That’s it - I’ve cleansed my conscience…….. the easy way
 
mbg42 said:
Might be better than smoking if you smoke the same amount as you vape but people are glued to their vapes and use them constently throughout the day rather than going out for fag breaks every hour.
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I can understand why people think this. It's not really true though. The oil that is used to carry the nicotine in the UK is limited to 18mg of nicotine, which is very low. I think the disposables are 6mg so you have to puff more to maintain the same nicotine level as cigarettes. 6k puffs is about the equivalebt of 20 cigarettes.

Puffing more is not, neccesarily worse for you than smoking a cigarette every 2 hours.
 
Some comments from myself, who has journeyed from non-smoker > disco smoker > smoker > heavy smoker > smoker + light vaper > heavy vaper, non-vaper and now limited use vaper.

I think this policy is there as a "pretend we're trying to protect the kids" policy, to con some adults into voting for them, the Nazi's used to do similar. The reality is of course that it doesn't protect anyone more than it's increasing risk elsewhere.

How many kids will it stop taking it up, how many adults? What is the cost of that/ the opposite reaction? There's always a cost/ opposite reaction, similar to what Newton used to say.

What is the public opinion from vapers who have used these to quit smoking? What was the route for them into quitting smoking? What about people still smoking? Seeing as we still have ~13% of adults who smoke, a millions who have quit (with ease) due to vaping, this is quite important.

If vaping is 5% of the damage of smoking (as per the governments own health review, among many others) then for every 20 you prevent starting vaping, then you only need 1 to start actual smoking and the risk is even. Will it work on a 20:1 ratio? Of course not, it will be lucky to be 55:1, in this area and then it gets even worse in other areas.

Reducing risk is great, but if the control measures increase risk elsewhere then it just becomes silly (more risk). The same applies to trying to control low risks, with poor controls, when there are easy options to control much higher risks, the latter makes more sense.

Same applies to the flavour options, if you limit this to actual cigarette tase, just nicotine (tasteless) or menthol, then you're going to drastically reduce the numbers moving from smoking to vaping to stopping altogether. This makes zero sense when cigarettes are still on sale, and the upping a year per year is far too slow in theory, and even slower in reality. Sure you can allow "fruit" flavours but ban "sweet" flavours but this will make absolutely zero difference of course, as they're practically identical and the exact same market.

So, lets look at the other consequences:

If you take this option away, for existing smokers, then they are more likely to continue with existing smoking, rather than moving over to something which is 1/20th of the risk. This is a far bigger problem, than new vapers (but not new smokers).

Not many moving from smoking to vaping is going from cigarettes to a £50 setup immediately, not unless they've had easy access to a smaller trial. Equally if the refillable option is £20 and the fags are £10 (no idea what they cost these days), then they will just buy the fags, or stay on them for longer, people don't change unless it's heavily incentivised and a disposable is what £3-£5?.

But, if you don't get people over from smoking> disposables, but from smoking> refillable, you're just opening the door to heavier use. A refillable is like 2ml of 10mg at 20 watts, but if you give them 2ml of 10mg, 80 Watts and another 8ml left in the bottle, then what do you think will happen? Correct, it goes from casual to permanent heavier use.

People completely ignoring disco smokers too, which is one of the main routes into smoking for adults, of any age. People get hammered, want something extra for one reason or another, or get peer pressured into it. Then either chose Vaping, Smoking actual cigarettes, Weed or even class A's. You're not going to change their personality, social scene, peer pressure etc, it's not controllable.

Vaping isn't really a route into smoking, it's a different path to nicotine and the result of that. Nobody vaping 6mg fruit juice is moving on to Malborough Reds (or lights), they've nothing to gain by doing this, so they don't. There's a lot to lose too, the tase and smell to most vapours who used to smoke, or who never smoked is sickening, so I doubt it's going to get many new takers, then obviously the cost and health risk is far higher, which everyone is well aware of.

Sure, we might end up with 20% vaping, rather than 12% smoking, but when the former is 1/20th of the risk, then the stat should be incomparable to most, or it should read 20%, which is 1% total risk or the other option is 12% which is 12% total risk.

Then there's also the actual benefits of nicotine, which people seem to casually ignore. It is calming, stress reducing and an appetite suppressant. The latter being quite important I think when we have a obesity crisis, especially in kids. It's fairly similar to caffeine, but probably much better for you than drinking 500ml of monster every day, or full fat coke which isn't much better.

Ban the actual UK legal sale of cigarettes first, for all ages via cost jacking, or rationing over the course of a year or two. Then if that manages to be possible, go after the vapers, if necessary (i.e if the problem is proven to be worse than other health issues).

To me the obesity crisis looks far worse, people say nothing if a kid is massively overweight (it's even frowned upon in social circles) and still allowed to buy chocolate bars and MacDonalds (or their parents are). Yet, if they use a weak vape once a week people see it as far worse, when it's not, from a risk and healthcare cost perspective. The main way it is wrong is that they are being able to do something illegal (which is 100% wrong), but that can controlled much, much better, with much heavier fines on shops and those giving them to kids etc.
 
Andy_W said:
Some comments from myself, who has journeyed from non-smoker > disco smoker > smoker > heavy smoker > smoker + light vaper > heavy vaper, non-vaper and now limited use vaper.

I think this policy is there as a "pretend we're trying to protect the kids" policy, to con some adults into voting for them, the Nazi's used to do similar. The reality is of course that it doesn't protect anyone more than it's increasing risk elsewhere.

How many kids will it stop taking it up, how many adults? What is the cost of that/ the opposite reaction? There's always a cost/ opposite reaction, similar to what Newton used to say.

What is the public opinion from vapers who have used these to quit smoking? What was the route for them into quitting smoking? What about people still smoking? Seeing as we still have ~13% of adults who smoke, a millions who have quit (with ease) due to vaping, this is quite important.

If vaping is 5% of the damage of smoking (as per the governments own health review, among many others) then for every 20 you prevent starting vaping, then you only need 1 to start actual smoking and the risk is even. Will it work on a 20:1 ratio? Of course not, it will be lucky to be 55:1, in this area and then it gets even worse in other areas.

Reducing risk is great, but if the control measures increase risk elsewhere then it just becomes silly (more risk). The same applies to trying to control low risks, with poor controls, when there are easy options to control much higher risks, the latter makes more sense.

Same applies to the flavour options, if you limit this to actual cigarette tase, just nicotine (tasteless) or menthol, then you're going to drastically reduce the numbers moving from smoking to vaping to stopping altogether. This makes zero sense when cigarettes are still on sale, and the upping a year per year is far too slow in theory, and even slower in reality. Sure you can allow "fruit" flavours but ban "sweet" flavours but this will make absolutely zero difference of course, as they're practically identical and the exact same market.

So, lets look at the other consequences:

If you take this option away, for existing smokers, then they are more likely to continue with existing smoking, rather than moving over to something which is 1/20th of the risk. This is a far bigger problem, than new vapers (but not new smokers).

Not many moving from smoking to vaping is going from cigarettes to a £50 setup immediately, not unless they've had easy access to a smaller trial. Equally if the refillable option is £20 and the fags are £10 (no idea what they cost these days), then they will just buy the fags, or stay on them for longer, people don't change unless it's heavily incentivised and a disposable is what £3-£5?.

But, if you don't get people over from smoking> disposables, but from smoking> refillable, you're just opening the door to heavier use. A refillable is like 2ml of 10mg at 20 watts, but if you give them 2ml of 10mg, 80 Watts and another 8ml left in the bottle, then what do you think will happen? Correct, it goes from casual to permanent heavier use.

People completely ignoring disco smokers too, which is one of the main routes into smoking for adults, of any age. People get hammered, want something extra for one reason or another, or get peer pressured into it. Then either chose Vaping, Smoking actual cigarettes, Weed or even class A's. You're not going to change their personality, social scene, peer pressure etc, it's not controllable.

Vaping isn't really a route into smoking, it's a different path to nicotine and the result of that. Nobody vaping 6mg fruit juice is moving on to Malborough Reds (or lights), they've nothing to gain by doing this, so they don't. There's a lot to lose too, the tase and smell to most vapours who used to smoke, or who never smoked is sickening, so I doubt it's going to get many new takers, then obviously the cost and health risk is far higher, which everyone is well aware of.

Sure, we might end up with 20% vaping, rather than 12% smoking, but when the former is 1/20th of the risk, then the stat should be incomparable to most, or it should read 20%, which is 1% total risk or the other option is 12% which is 12% total risk.

Then there's also the actual benefits of nicotine, which people seem to casually ignore. It is calming, stress reducing and an appetite suppressant. The latter being quite important I think when we have a obesity crisis, especially in kids. It's fairly similar to caffeine, but probably much better for you than drinking 500ml of monster every day, or full fat coke which isn't much better.

Ban the actual UK legal sale of cigarettes first, for all ages via cost jacking, or rationing over the course of a year or two. Then if that manages to be possible, go after the vapers, if necessary (i.e if the problem is proven to be worse than other health issues).

To me the obesity crisis looks far worse, people say nothing if a kid is massively overweight (it's even frowned upon in social circles) and still allowed to buy chocolate bars and MacDonalds (or their parents are). Yet, if they use a weak vape once a week people see it as far worse, when it's not, from a risk and healthcare cost perspective. The main way it is wrong is that they are being able to do something illegal (which is 100% wrong), but that can controlled much, much better, with much heavier fines on shops and those giving them to kids etc.
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Stopped reading this after 'The Nazi's used to do similar'. Fck me 😂
 
I was a heavy smoker for many years, and never thought I'd be able to quit - but I did with vapes.
I can't abide the ones that churn out loads of vapour, they make me cough like feck - but I use a small rechargeable vape, that's tobacco flavour...and it works for me!
I was also able to jib off smoking bifters by using a THC vape.
I must admit, I do feel better for it and so far they've found no adverse health problems - although I won't be massively surprised if they do find something eventually.

I'll be ***ed off if they ban Juuls tbh.
 
the_gin_soaked_boy said:
I was a heavy smoker for many years, and never thought I'd be able to quit - but I did with vapes.
I can't abide the ones that churn out loads of vapour, they make me cough like feck - but I use a small rechargeable vape, that's tobacco flavour...and it works for me!
I was also able to jib off smoking bifters by using a THC vape.
I must admit, I do feel better for it and so far they've found no adverse health problems - although I won't be massively surprised if they do find something eventually.

I'll be ***ed off if they ban Juuls tbh.
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the_gin_soaked_boy said:
Oh, and there are cardboard versions of Elfbars out there, which I agree should be the norm.
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I used to use massives one which I ran at like 80W, that put out too much vapour, were too big, too heavy, I was forever charging/ replacing batteries and it wasn't necessary, but that seemed the way to go. I ended up quitting that for a while, and quitting is was miles easier than quitting smoking too I thought.

When went back on vaping a few months later (as I was getting fat, and stressed) I went onto the Elf bars, the normal plastic ones and they were really good to be honest. I don't see why they need to be plastic, they should just be cardboard or easily recyclable in some way. I soon gave those up though, as it was working out expensive, and just use a small rechargeable Geekvape sonder Q, with replacement pods, think it runs at like 20W like an elf bar, but just use slightly stronger liquid. It's more like smoking than the 80W thing was, I think. I think that's similar to a JUUL?

My main concern with disposable ones is I think they're too cheap for a disposable item, I think they should probably jack up the price on them with a £5 tax or something, and keep increasing the tax on smoking until it just becomes non-viable. If it doesn't have a charger or isn't designed for the main body to last 6 months, then it needs to be penalised, from a waste perspective.

Could even do a trade in/ like a deposit on the disposable ones, so they get recycled, just force it. Charge £15 for them, or £5 if you return one for recycling at the same time.

The geekvape sonder Q was only £10-15 I think, and the pods are about £3 each and last about a week or two (longer than sub ohm coils). I was expecting it to be crap, but just about do a job, but it's just better in so many ways. Devices like this are why I think the disposable ones need to go up in price (and smoking goes up also). There shouldn't be any need for a full time vaper to use elf bars, so they should get hit on cost, but I don't think they should disappear as they solve a problem for casuals, and stops them going onto actual smoking. The disposable ones need to stay until actual smoking is gone I think.

The cheap rechargeable devices are also a reason why banning disposables altogether will do absolutely zero, or not be net positive, as if they want it enough they will just buy a cheap rechargeable (and end up vaping more), or just smoke.
 
Andy_W said:
I used to use massives one which I ran at like 80W, that put out too much vapour, were too big, too heavy, I was forever charging/ replacing batteries and it wasn't necessary, but that seemed the way to go. I ended up quitting that for a while, and quitting is was miles easier than quitting smoking too I thought.

When went back on vaping a few months later (as I was getting fat, and stressed) I went onto the Elf bars, the normal plastic ones and they were really good to be honest. I don't see why they need to be plastic, they should just be cardboard or easily recyclable in some way. I soon gave those up though, as it was working out expensive, and just use a small rechargeable Geekvape sonder Q, with replacement pods, think it runs at like 20W like an elf bar, but just use slightly stronger liquid. It's more like smoking than the 80W thing was, I think. I think that's similar to a JUUL?

My main concern with disposable ones is I think they're too cheap for a disposable item, I think they should probably jack up the price on them with a £5 tax or something, and keep increasing the tax on smoking until it just becomes non-viable. If it doesn't have a charger or isn't designed for the main body to last 6 months, then it needs to be penalised, from a waste perspective.

Could even do a trade in/ like a deposit on the disposable ones, so they get recycled, just force it. Charge £15 for them, or £5 if you return one for recycling at the same time.

The geekvape sonder Q was only £10-15 I think, and the pods are about £3 each and last about a week or two (longer than sub ohm coils). I was expecting it to be crap, but just about do a job, but it's just better in so many ways. Devices like this are why I think the disposable ones need to go up in price (and smoking goes up also). There shouldn't be any need for a full time vaper to use elf bars, so they should get hit on cost, but I don't think they should disappear as they solve a problem for casuals, and stops them going onto actual smoking. The disposable ones need to stay until actual smoking is gone I think.

The cheap rechargeable devices are also a reason why banning disposables altogether will do absolutely zero, or not be net positive, as if they want it enough they will just buy a cheap rechargeable (and end up vaping more), or just smoke.
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Plastic accounts for around 6% of the climate change problem.
Vapes in the UK will be a miniscule proportion of that 6%.

Yet, Sunak says it is about the environment and people believe it.
This is from a guy that takes a private helicopter for UK travel - some people just lap it up
 
I get the part about plastic litter.

But Banning vapes to protect the kids ...yet they can still go buy McDonald's / KFC / coca-cola etc etc
 
1finny said:
Plastic accounts for around 6% of the climate change problem.
Vapes in the UK will be a miniscule proportion of that 6%.

Yet, Sunak says it is about the environment and people believe it.
This is from a guy that takes a private helicopter for UK travel - some people just lap it up
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Yeah, totally get what you're saying. Probably recycling it uses more energy than just making new ones, but this shouldn't be the case as time goes on and we get more free/ wind energy etc.

If they're going to use that as a drum to beat though, let them beat it, as there are some really easy replies to that specific thing, and their aim isn't going to work, it's desperation which has no real logical reasoning to it. There are of course a lot of other things which do a lot more damage, which they won't do anything about as their voter demographic doesn't want it.

I can semi understand why Sunak would go places on a private helicopter or people who go to climate summits etc travel by plane. I think the time saved by flying and productivity by more people being at key events, and right place, right time should massively offset any further damage done. I think that's the case for climate summits etc, but don't think it's the case for Sunak (as leader of the Tory clowns), as he's basically not doing any good (albeit probably better than the last two clowns). If a PM and their party were doing a decent job they could fly everywhere for all I care, as long as they're pushing through more sustainable policies. I don't mind the "do as I say, not as I do" kind of thing, in some instances. Like if the person saying it is trying to implement things which are better for people as a whole, and them working less efficiently would slow things down.

All of this is clutching at straws, or trying to clutch at votes, playing the "think of the children" or "protect the earth" cards. Both of those are good cards to play if that's your actual reason for doing them, but they're clearly not, it's just propaganda.
 
the_gin_soaked_boy said:
I have a Sonder one for my weed vape, but it leaks the juice into my mouth...so I'm put off by it.
Any tips to stop that from happening please?
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Mine doesn't do that, not often anyway. Do you use the Q pods? I get them off Amazon.

I just use 50/50 liquid and have it set on the mid range and just give it a decent toke and it's usually sound.
 
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