Derby fans

Rauko

Well-known member
So you think Gibson is doing it on a 'whimp'? - Don't be daft, he'll have had top legal advice - the Derby county reps are always going to say there's no legal case, otherwise they are basically admitting guilt before/if it goes to a court
Hey .. I'm not arguing .. I'm just trying to understand what's going on .. Is it just about the money? Is it trying to prevent any future buyer getting a cheap deal thus strengthening Derby in the long run? Is it just about taking it to the 11th hour and then dropping it just to weaken them as a club?

I dunno.

BTW - the "legal representatives" on Twitter are a bunch of Nigels who claim to be experts in such things (I was being sarcastic!)
 

Rauko

Well-known member
I think a large part of it is setting a precedent. A 9 point deduction for the FFP breaches Derby committed is laughable. I think Gibbo wants to see clubs properly punished, and if anything for it to act as a deterrent.
To me FFP breaches should come with automatic relegation attached .. but that's not going to happen here ..
 

uncle_rico

Well-known member
To me FFP breaches should come with automatic relegation attached .. but that's not going to happen here ..
Someone mentioned it earlier in this thread about the punishment Saracens received from the RFU and how something along those lines would be more fitting in case like Derby.
 

290204

Active member
Screenshot_20220117-213632_Samsung Internet.jpg
I think derby fans should feel aggrieved about this.

It was ridiculous at the time and I think similar with wolves that effectively because they cheated enough to get promoted, they only received a drop in the ocean fine of the prem TV money whereas they would have been punished harder if they hadn't gone up.
 

Mfc79

Well-known member
So what is Steve Gibsons end game here?

Derby fans seem to think he's out to finish Derby off once for all and that's the basis of their emotive argument .. I can't imagine that would be SGs motive and he probably wouldn't let happen if it turns out that he WAS the hangman

So what's his game?

There isn't a precedent for claiming compo from a club who's breached FFP so there's no guarentee of success if it ended up in the courts (and especially if Derby had already gone bust by that time)

And, according to the Derby County "legal representatives" on Twitter - he hasn't got a leg to stand on anyway ..

So .. can anybody explain his game and what his strategy is and what do you think would be a result for him?
In law when seeking compensation you do not have to be guaranteed the sum you are claiming. There are many, many cases of this. One such example would be when people are injured at work where their employer is culpable and when the employee is forced to take long term sickness. In such circumstances the employee's can claim for potentially missed bonus' and overtime dispite such bonus' and overtime not being guaranteed. This is known in law as 'loss of chance'.

Only knowing the information that is in the public domain surrounding this matter, I would suggest that Gibson has a very strong claim to compensation through loss of chance. Factors such as there only being one point difference between the two clubs final standings would suggest that it is highly likely that Middlesbrough would have finished above Derby if Derby had not had the unfair advantage they gained through cheating the FFP rules.

Other factors such as how likely would Middlesbrough have been to have won the play off's and gain promotion had they had finished above Derby in 6th place would need to be carefully calculated.

The likely formula implemented to gain a figure for loss of chance would be to calculate a figure of what promotion is actually worth. There are many problems to this as it is almost impossible to gauge if Middlesbrough did win the 2018/19 play off's and gain promotion how likely would it be that Middlesbrough avoid relegation and how do you calculate how many seasons of Premiership payments can Gibson claim for. If you assume one season which is the worse case scenario then a calculation needs to be made on to how much is promotion to the Premier league for one season worth.

A calculation would need to be made of adding the income made from taking part and winning the playoff's plus the income of one season in the premier league plus the income of the subsequent three seasons of parachute payments. Once you have that figure which is usually estimated to be well in excess of £100m then you would need to divide thst figure by the percentage chance of Middlesbrough winning the play off's. From there you have to leave it to the lawyers and judiciary to cast their opinions. It is far from an exact science but there are many examples of this in compensation claims.
 

uncle_rico

Well-known member
In law when seeking compensation you do not have to be guaranteed the sum you are claiming. There are many, many cases of this. One such example would be when people are injured at work where their employer is culpable and when the employee is forced to take long term sickness. In such circumstances the employee's can claim for potentially missed bonus' and overtime dispite such bonus' and overtime not being guaranteed. This is known in law as 'loss of chance'.

Only knowing the information that is in the public domain surrounding this matter, I would suggest that Gibson has a very strong claim to compensation through loss of chance. Factors such as there only being one point difference between the two clubs final standings would suggest that it is highly likely that Middlesbrough would have finished above Derby if Derby had not had the unfair advantage they gained through cheating the FFP rules.

Other factors such as how likely would Middlesbrough have been to have won the play off's and gain promotion had they had finished above Derby in 6th place would need to be carefully calculated.

The likely formula implemented to gain a figure for loss of chance would be to calculate a figure of what promotion is actually worth. There are many problems to this as it is almost impossible to gauge if Middlesbrough did win the 2018/19 play off's and gain promotion how likely would it be that Middlesbrough avoid relegation and how do you calculate how many seasons of Premiership payments can Gibson claim for. If you assume one season which is the worse case scenario then a calculation needs to be made on to how much is promotion to the Premier league for one season worth.

A calculation would need to be made of adding the income made from taking part and winning the playoff's plus the income of one season in the premier league plus the income of the subsequent three seasons of parachute payments. Once you have that figure which is usually estimated to be well in excess of £100m then you would need to divide thst figure by the percentage chance of Middlesbrough winning the play off's. From there you have to leave it to the lawyers and judiciary to cast their opinions. It is far from an exact science but there are many examples of this in compensation claims.
Whoever wants to buy Derby will have to make Gibson (and Couhig) an offer and try to “settle on best terms”. This could also prevent any further legal costs as would avoid actually going to court. If the figure of £45m is correct then I cannot see any prospective new Derby owner paying anywhere close to that figure before they’ve even put a penny into Derby.

There have been reports that Mike Ashley wants to discuss the situation with Gibbo to try and come to an agreement, but it seems to me that Gibbo is holding all of the cards. The fact that any money we do get would be from Mike Ashley makes it a little bit sweeter.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
So what's his game?
two fold I think, firstly make sure that someone doesn't get to buy Derby on the cheap and cleanse their debts and put themselves on a strong footing as a 'reward' for cheating. Secondly to get compensation. I don't for one minute think we will get 45mill or that Gibson thinks that. It's a negotiating position. He'll settle for10+ I would reckon
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
A calculation would need to be made of adding the income made from taking part and winning the playoff's plus the income of one season in the premier league plus the income of the subsequent three seasons of parachute payments. Once you have that figure which is usually estimated to be well in excess of £100m then you would need to divide thst figure by the percentage chance of Middlesbrough winning the play off's. From there you have to leave it to the lawyers and judiciary to cast their opinions. It is far from an exact science but there are many examples of this in compensation claims.
promotion, one season in prem then parachute equates to approx 170mill. So This is roughly a 22% approximation of our chance
 

Cress

Well-known member
Efl statement
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
View attachment 31731
I think derby fans should feel aggrieved about this.

It was ridiculous at the time and I think similar with wolves that effectively because they cheated enough to get promoted, they only received a drop in the ocean fine of the prem TV money whereas they would have been punished harder if they hadn't gone up.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The problem facing teh EFL is that the EPL have threatened to take away solidarity payments should the EFL heavily punish relegated teams
 

TeaCider

Well-known member
An official EFL communication actually has the Q&A "Does the EFL have a vendetta against Derby County?".

The whole situation is a farce.
 

bostonboro

Active member
The EFL statement confirms the action against Derby started 12 months ago, prior to any points deduction or self imposed administration and further penalty. So clearly demonstrates it is not a case of Gibson trying to hammer the final nail in the coffin
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Efl statement
That's an excellent statement and some very key points in it:

1 - The Policy, and associated regulations, have been agreed by Clubs and seek to act as a disincentive to individuals from running Clubs in such a way that they gain a financial advantage over competitors and subsequently rely on insolvency legislation to compromise the unpaid debts incurred. : Derby fans are focusing on the EFLs treatement of Derby, but the EFL has to maintian financial fairness, and Derby tried to gain advantage, they signed up to these rules and now want them to be ignored. Also the use of insolvancy to avoid debt and wipe the slate clean is not acceptable, so they have to address our claims

2 - Middlesbrough FC commenced its claims against the Club over 12 months ago in arbitration proceedings : So we didn't do this to kick them when weak, we did this long before we could have possibly known that Morris would put them into administration. From my stand point, this stinks of Morris knowing he might end up paying out, and his ego couldn't take Gibson beating him. It is well documented that there have been blazing rows in EFL meetings between the two and that Gibson told him he would pay for his cheating. That Gibson warned in meetings even prior to this that Morris was up to no good.

3 - Any EFL Board members conflicted on any matter do not take part in any discussion and are asked to leave the meeting. : Bauser is not pulling the strings and leveraging his position at EFL board to help Gibson win.

So some of the Derby fans ridiculous claims have been shut down pretty sharpish by this.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Madness that an organisation such as the EFL has to even print that. Can only assume that the Derby fans have been writing to them en masse asking that very and stupid question.
According to their message boards yes they have, they've also been trying to get their local tory MPs to push for answers.

I bet they are having an absolute melt down and claiming that EFL statement is utter lies. When in reality those meetings will be minuted, Bauser as I said the other day would have to recuse from it. Ultimately this is all Morris's cowardly actions. I mean the guy signed up to these rules, Gibson warned him he would sue, the entitled idiot thought he would get away with it, then threw his toys out the pram when it didn't work.

Morris is possibly the worst chairman in recent history, and there are plenty of bad examples out there.
 

MidlandsBoroFan

Active member
I think a large part of it is setting a precedent. A 9 point deduction for the FFP breaches Derby committed is laughable. I think Gibbo wants to see clubs properly punished, and if anything for it to act as a deterrent.
Agree completely. Gibson might want compensation (and might get it) but I don’t feel it is the main aim.

9 point penalty is laughable. Derby didn’t just break FFP through bad luck. They blatantly cheated. People knew it was happening and Gibson was the only person who challenged it.

If we don’t get promoted this season, what’s to stop us throwing £100m on players in the summer? It will probably get us promoted next season. If not, we would still almost certainly survive with a 9 point deduction. So any number of clubs could try this if they have a rich enough owner. The potential benefits outweigh the punishment.

Only my gut feel, but I don’t think for a minute that Gibson wants to liquidate Derby. He will probably take it to the wire and then walk away, maybe with a small settlement. He probably wants the EFL to have harsher penalties in future. Plus he wants to discourage other clubs cheating in future.
 

BoroMart

Well-known member
Just checked and they are whining about the length of time for the EFL to make a judgment on Boro and Wycombe claims. a) It misses a key point that it isn't the EFL who do that and b) the irony that a team that dragged out the process last season so that they would be hit by penalty points this season and thus avoid relegation are now complaining that a process is taking too long 🤷‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️

They think the EFL are getting squeaky bums, I don't think that's the case at all, they are between a rock and a hard place and want it to be sorted by independent arbitration

They still think this is an EFL vendetta and are a stain on the sport despite Derby being the cheats, and that they should keep their players to remain competitive and 'keep the integrity of the sport'. They actually think keeping players they can't afford retains integrity, that's exactly how they got into this mess, you couldn't make it up.
 
Top
X