Defacing the Cenotaph and Churchill statue

[Muttley]

Churchill had views that were common at the time. Whilst you could hardly call him a campaigner for equality he was not Hitler. This article on the BBC outlines some controversies about Churchill

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

It is always unhelpful to judge historical figures by modern standards. Churchill was no saint but neither was he a monster,

 

[Jedi boro]

Churchill had views that were common at the time. Whilst you could hardly call him a campaigner for equality he was not Hitler. This article on the BBC outlines some controversies about Churchill

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

It is always unhelpful to judge historical figures by modern standards. Churchill was no saint but neither was he a monster,

As muttley says you always have to judge history in context as we can be too pious to judge others with our modern views.

 

[Skirmish]

Why don't you do some reading to see whether he may have a point? And if you find that he's wrong, argue with references? Instead of ad hominem stuff.

I won't be doing that with 360, but he is most Definetly wrong, also see him throwing out racist accusations at anybody, shows the character of the man.

 

[360]

I won't be doing that with 360, but he is most Definetly wrong, also see him throwing out racist accusations at anybody, shows the character of the man.

That says more about you than it does about me. It suggests that you are not willing to have a proper debate, but rather resort to mudslinging because facts do not support your agenda.

 

[Skirmish]

That says more about you than it does about me. It suggests that you are not willing to have a proper debate, but rather resort to mudslinging because facts do not support your agenda.

There he is

 

[360]

As muttley says you always have to judge history in context as we can be too pious to judge others with our modern views.

Agreed that context is important, however that does not make his actions, with a degree of hindsight or not, right. He was voted out at the next election for a reason.

"Indians breed like rabbits" "beastly people with a beastly religion" "I hate Indians" - refused to send food relief to India.

These people died under British rule, and this should not be forgotten.

 

[Jedi boro]

this should not be forgotten.

Or

das sollte nicht vergessen werden.

is how it would have read if it wasn’t for Churchill as make no mistake the rest of the british govt/elite were more than willing to sue for peace and make a deal with her hitler . As He pretty much stood alone in the early days even after dunkirk ( some 10 days after he took office) he still believed we would win this war that wasn’t a widely held view back then.

 

[Skirmish]

Or

das sollte nicht vergessen werden.

is how it would have read if it wasn’t for Churchill as make no mistake the rest of the british govt/elite were more than willing to sue for peace and make a deal with her hitler . As He pretty much stood alone in the early days even after dunkirk ( some 10 days after he took office) he still believed we would win this war that wasn’t a widely held view back then.

Very well said

 

[Chappy112]

360 already said that he was a great wartime leader.

 

[360]

Or

das sollte nicht vergessen werden.

is how it would have read if it wasn’t for Churchill as make no mistake the rest of the british govt/elite were more than willing to sue for peace and make a deal with her hitler . As He pretty much stood alone in the early days even after dunkirk ( some 10 days after he took office) he still believed we would win this war that wasn’t a widely held view back then.

360 already said that he was a great wartime leader.

Yep, they are totally avoiding my point.

 

[br14]

"I think we shall have to take the Chinese in hand and regulate them. I believe that as civilized nations become more powerful they will get more ruthless, and the time will come when the world will impatiently bear the existence of great barbaric nations who may at any time arm themselves and menace civilized nations. I believe in the ultimate partition of China—I mean ultimate. I hope we shall not have to do it in our day. The Aryan stock is bound to triumph. "

Did he actually say those words? Perhaps. They were captured by a journalist in an interview from what I read. 1902 was a different time. Churchill was 28 and the British Empire was at its height. Even so they're remarkably prescient.

As for Lincoln, he was trying to get the laws on slavery over turned. He might have said anything to win votes. You don't climb a mountain without making the first step.

 

[360]

Speaking on Palestine: "I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

*edited to say that he wasn't speaking about Palestine, but in it.

 

[br14]

But wasn't Churchill proposing allowing the immigration of Jews to Palestine? He might just as easily have been arguing that immigration to the UK was not a "great wrong". Bringing in people with greater skills - "higher grade" or more "worldly wise" perhaps - to improve the community. Whatever his views on First Nations peoples, Churchill was a pragmatist, he was faced with the reality of the day. However we feel about his language, given the prominence of the US and Australia as nations at the time, he could hardly admit it was a great wrong, especially since his mother was American.

“I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.”

"refused to send food relief to India". Not exactly true. In fact Churchill did arrange for food to be sent to India from Australia. At the time British people were on food rations, and most were lucky to have enough to eat. Much food was shipped from the USA and ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic. Churchill had to make sure British and American (and other) troops had enough to eat to maintain the war effort so prevented Canadian provisions being sent to India. The link below suggest that even Ghandi might have done more to help the starving.

Indias famine would have been worse

 

[Liamo]

...on the anniversary of D-Day. Whilst the police stand by and watch. Utterly despicable.

They’ve also defaced the Abraham Lincoln statue.
Some of these morons clearly need to go back to school

There's just a slight problem with the thread title - the Cenotaph was not defaced:

City of Westminster Police said on Twitter: “We are aware of incorrect social media rumours of damage being caused to the Cenotaph during protests in #Whitehall. We are not aware of any damage.

MPS Westminster Twitter feed

 

[Borobarmy]

Or

das sollte nicht vergessen werden.

is how it would have read if it wasn’t for Churchill as make no mistake the rest of the british govt/elite were more than willing to sue for peace and make a deal with her hitler . As He pretty much stood alone in the early days even after dunkirk ( some 10 days after he took office) he still believed we would win this war that wasn’t a widely held view back then.

Brilliant reply

 

[FabioPorkpie]

There's just a slight problem with the thread title - the Cenotaph was not defaced:


MPS Westminster Twitter feed

Exactly.

Instead of getting angry with the phantom perpetrators, some people would do well to stop believing every agenda driven transparent ***** they see on Facebook and the like, and stop allowing themselves to be pawns in a mass game of divide and conquer. Sometimes a little simple research is necessary before getting all angry.
The ease with which large swathes of the public can be manipulated and prodded into anger is getting seriously dangerous.

 

[FatCat]

Exactly.

Instead of getting angry with the phantom perpetrators, some people would do well to stop believing every agenda driven transparent ***** they see on Facebook and the like, and stop allowing themselves to be pawns in a mass game of divide and conquer. Sometimes a little simple research is necessary before getting all angry.
The ease with which large swathes of the public can be manipulated and prodded into anger is getting seriously dangerous.

I’m not sure I get the point the Churchill statue and that of lincoln,yes Lincoln was vandalised. We are angry with the perpetrators because they don’t really care about anyones life they are just feral vermin having a riotous day out. Same as the person who pushed a bike into the horse. There is really no excuse for any of it, the police need to clamp down on these people. You are allowed to peacefully protest but you do not get a free pass on acting within the law.

 

[festa5]

Churchill had views that were common at the time. Whilst you could hardly call him a campaigner for equality he was not Hitler. This article on the BBC outlines some controversies about Churchill

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29701767

It is always unhelpful to judge historical figures by modern standards. Churchill was no saint but neither was he a monster,

This is where education has a key role. Rather than shying away from teaching that prominent historical icons had these views, surely it would be far better to teach kids that these people weren't saints but help them understand the context and culture of the time and how it differs from today. You know, maybe actually help them think for themselves, draw their own conclusions and understand the world isn't black and white.

Instead you end up with strongly polarised views that just cause division. Some think Churchill is untouchable and put him on a pedestal, some think he was fairly despicable. The truth is he was human like the rest of us. He did many great things and is rightly honoured for them, but he wasn't perfect. Who is? It makes him a far more interesting and complex character than many realise.

 

[Soutra]

Or

das sollte nicht vergessen werden.

is how it would have read if it wasn’t for Churchill as make no mistake the rest of the british govt/elite were more than willing to sue for peace and make a deal with her hitler . As He pretty much stood alone in the early days even after dunkirk ( some 10 days after he took office) he still believed we would win this war that wasn’t a widely held view back then.

There's a lot to unpack there. I'm doubtful that there were many that wanted to sue for peace with Germany in 1940, although some, for sure did. As a wartime leader, you wouldn't expect that Churchill would say anything other than the war can be won. Whether that was based on anything other than bluster and stubbornness in June 1940, I'm not sure. Churchill's task was made less difficult by the English Channel, and in 1941 by the German attack on the Soviet Union, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and most of all by US support from the time of Dunkirk onwards.

Churchill's strategy - which was just about the only one that he could have followed - was to limit Britain's involvement in the war for as long as possible. So the RAF attacked German cities, resistance was encouraged, the U Boat menace was confronted but there was no major land confrontations with the Wehrmacht. Churchill realised that the Wehrmacht was by far the most efficient army ever seen, and could only be defeated by overwhelming weight of numbers. So Churchill kept Britain alive, and played for time while his allies readied themselves. And eventually, with the Axis stretched on many fronts, the strategy was proven correct. It was probably the only strategy that Britain could have followed that would not have ended in defeat, but Churchill - by dint of blood, sweat, toil and tears - won through.

 

[r00fie1]

Exactly.

Instead of getting angry with the phantom perpetrators, some people would do well to stop believing every agenda driven transparent ***** they see on Facebook and the like, and stop allowing themselves to be pawns in a mass game of divide and conquer. Sometimes a little simple research is necessary before getting all angry.
The ease with which large swathes of the public can be manipulated and prodded into anger is getting seriously dangerous.

www.forces.net:

Official British Armed Forces / BFBS / Forces TV Service

https://www.forces.net/news/soldiers-heckled-while-cleaning-graffiti-london-military-statue

"Soldiers Heckled While Cleaning Graffiti From London Military Statue"

A video has emerged on social media showing soldiers being confronted as they attempted to remove graffiti from a military statue in London.
The soldiers, who are members of the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, had been on duty in nearby Horseguards on Wednesday evening when they noticed the graffiti on the Earl Haig Memorial.
They volunteered to clean it up and the video shows the soldiers trying to wipe off red paint from the plinth at the base of the monument while being challenged by onlookers.
An Army source said: "The incident took place at 8.30pm on Wednesday night.
"The soldiers were in the area working at Horseguards, where they had been on duty.
"The soldiers noticed the graffiti and volunteered to clean it up.
"They asked for permission from the guard commander, which was given, and were told to return if there was any trouble.
"There were no threats violence, and nobody was injured in incident."
Forces News has chosen not to share the video.

Earlier that day, central London had seen thousands of people join a protest over the death of George Floyd in US police custody.
The Earl Haig Memorial depicts the First World War officer riding on horseback and has been on Whitehall site since 1937.
Members of the Household Cavalry are known to take particular care of two statues on Whitehall.
On Christmas Day each year, a regimental tradition exists where the soldiers on duty 'bed down' the statues with hay from their near-by stables, so it appears the horses have been bedded down to rest.
The Household Cavalry has conducted public duties at Horse Guards daily since the mid-18th century.
It is made up of troopers from two regiments: The Life Guards and The Blues and Royals."