Corbyn has spoken There is no virus its all a hoax

Norman_Conquest

Well-known member
#63
I wasn't going to quibble over it but I doubt McD actually said it was "unrealistic". It's pretty obviously not unrealistic when you think about it. It's just debt cancellation. It'sbeen done before and will be done again.
He didn't say it was unrealistic, I did. He did say though that it was an 'ambition' and not a 'firm promise.' He goes on to say that he didn't even know the size of the debt at the time.

I think we are just nit picking now though.
 

BlindBoyGrunt

Well-known member
#65
1. Corbyn stated he would remove tuition fees at a cost of 10 billion a year and also deal with existing student debt. Even McDonald admitted it was more of an ambition than a realistic promise.

2. I work in a local school and see the negative behaviour of those students who do not want to work on the students who do. My own son, in his last year was moved up into the top maths set and when he came home he said 'I cannot believe the difference dad, everyone listens and no one is messing about. I would have got an A* if I had been in this group from the off.'

We have some great Comprehensive schools but we also have some very poor. I feel students should be given the opportunity to take the 11+ and better themselves. There are many on this board who have prospered from it.
1. "Corbyn stated he would remove tuition fees at a cost of 10 billion a year"
Actually, not only was Corbyn's 2017 manifesto fully independently costed, it was the only one that was. We are the fifth richest country in the world as our leaders always tell us, and yet there are a number of countries in Europe who still offer free tuition to all EU and EEA students, and one or two who make the same offer for all students.

Austria: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Denmark: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Finland: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
France: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Germany: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA. Tuition-free for students from other countries.
Greece: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Hungary: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Norway: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA. Tuition-free for students from other countries.
Poland: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Scotland: No tuition fee for undergraduate degrees for Scottish or non-British EU citizens
Slovenia: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Sweden: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.


"and also deal with existing student debt."
There are not many people left who don't realise that this was a fabrication. One of those blatant misrepresentations designed to make Corbyn look like a liar who had double crossed the student population whose votes he was trying to gain. Anyone who saw the interview will be aware that he said no more than that he would see what he could do about existing debt.

As for grammar schools, there is a lot of evidence that shows that they can do more harm than good. For instance, in a grammar school area, if grammar schools take 25% of the best performing primary school pupils, those who are chosen to attend perform significantly better than those who are sent to Secondary Modern schools feeling demotivated and already branded as failures. However, in a corresponding comprehensive school system, the top 25% of pupils who attend do just as well as those who attend grammar schools, but the remaining 75% do better than the Secondary Modern equivalent.

https://www.dur.ac.uk/education/new...cess of grammar,age 11, suggests the research.
 

go-nads!

Well-known member
#66
I agree with a lot of what you have said there and cannot argue against any of it until we get to the end. In one of my earlier post I stated that Joe Public are frightened of the Labour Left Wing and the Tories played on it. The smear campaign wasn't just conducted by them though, there was members of the Labour Party involved. The party was in a turmoil over its leader at a time we needed to stand together to prevent Brexit. Instead, members of the Labour Party put themselves first instead of forming a realistic opposition party. Now we will all suffer because of it - Labour politicians at the time need to step back and ask themselves 'what could I have done to prevent this mess.'
alternately questions should be asked why some Labour mps behaved the way they did aNd what their rewards were.

I firmly suspect that a lot of nefarious dealings took place led by those with the most to lose from a progressive socialist government.

it’s a crying shame that our democracy can be corrupted the way it is. For me, corrupting democracy through greed should be a treasonable offence with the harshest of sentencing.

politics needs massive reform but that reform doesn’t suit those with historic power so unless there is a real revolution nothing will change.

we will continue to have centrist governments whose sole aim is to further enrich the elite. Giving the middle classes enough to feel good but looking over their shoulders in case the lower classes make a grab for their relative buttons.

the poor continue to be downtrodden, with no prospects and little hope.
 

Norman_Conquest

Well-known member
#67
1. "Corbyn stated he would remove tuition fees at a cost of 10 billion a year"
Actually, not only was Corbyn's 2017 manifesto fully independently costed, it was the only one that was. We are the fifth richest country in the world as our leaders always tell us, and yet there are a number of countries in Europe who still offer free tuition to all EU and EEA students, and one or two who make the same offer for all students.

Austria: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Denmark: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Finland: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
France: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Germany: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA. Tuition-free for students from other countries.
Greece: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Hungary: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Norway: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA. Tuition-free for students from other countries.
Poland: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Scotland: No tuition fee for undergraduate degrees for Scottish or non-British EU citizens
Slovenia: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.
Sweden: Tuition-free for students from the EU/EEA.


"and also deal with existing student debt."
There are not many people left who don't realise that this was a fabrication. One of those blatant misrepresentations designed to make Corbyn look like a liar who had double crossed the student population whose votes he was trying to gain. Anyone who saw the interview will be aware that he said no more than that he would see what he could do about existing debt.

As for grammar schools, there is a lot of evidence that shows that they can do more harm than good. For instance, in a grammar school area, if grammar schools take 25% of the best performing primary school pupils, those who are chosen to attend perform significantly better than those who are sent to Secondary Modern schools feeling demotivated and already branded as failures. However, in a corresponding comprehensive school system, the top 25% of pupils who attend do just as well as those who attend grammar schools, but the remaining 75% do better than the Secondary Modern equivalent.

https://www.dur.ac.uk/education/news/?itemno=34151#:~:text=Grammar schools are no better than other state schools, shows new research,-(28 March 2018&text=The apparent success of grammar,age 11, suggests the research.
I agree with the free tuition fees and only recently got shot down in flames when I dared to suggest that university students should get a refund for having to sit in dorms to watch virtual lectures.

Regarding the Education policy being 'fully independently costed,' why then did McDonald and Corbyn state they were unaware of the size of the student debt.


Tuition fees
Corbyn has campaigned strongly against tuition fees in England, and supports an increase in corporation tax to fund public services such as free higher education. The 2017 Labour manifesto pledged to remove tuition fees at a cost of around £10 billion per year. Before the election, Corbyn said that he would "deal with" the existing student debt, but after the election, Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell clarified that this was an "ambition" for Labour rather than a firm promise. Labour did not know how much the student debt would cost to wipe when Corbyn made his statement, with Corbyn saying in July 2017 "We never said we would completely abolish it because we were unaware of the size of it at that time".
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
#68
with Corbyn saying in July 2017 "We never said we would completely abolish it because we were unaware of the size of it at that time".
Fancy that, a politician willing to state an ambition but holding back on firm commitments until they get the details. What's meant to be the problem?

Anyway never mind Corbyn, we've got "oven ready brexit" and "world beating test and trace" whatever those word salads mean.
 

Norman_Conquest

Well-known member
#70
Fancy that, a politician willing to state an ambition but holding back on firm commitments until they get the details. What's meant to be the problem?

Anyway never mind Corbyn, we've got "oven ready brexit" and "world beating test and trace" whatever those word salads mean.
?????? When stuck for a good reply, bring out the 'oven ready.'

Fancy that, a politician willing to state an ambition but holding back on firm commitments until they get the details. What's meant to be the problem? It is a very similar statement to the 350m the idiot in charge mentioned in his Brexit campaign.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
#72
I agree with the free tuition fees and only recently got shot down in flames when I dared to suggest that university students should get a refund for having to sit in dorms to watch virtual lectures.
This is the problem Corbyn's Labour had. The character assassination was so effective you get people who actually support the policies making muddled arguments against them.

Your list of problems with what Corbyn stood for earlier was something to do with NATO and Trident which weren't Labour policies anyway, the tuition fees which you now actually support anyway, and the policy about getting rid of the last grammar schools which has ready happened around most of the country anyway. :ROFLMAO: It's not a very convincing charge sheet really, is it?
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
#74
It is a very similar statement to the 350m the idiot in charge mentioned in his Brexit campaign.
Nope. In fact it's the opposite.

One is proposing a specific policy - taking EU contributions and giving them to the NHS - despite knowing it's incorrect and won't happen - due to the rebate.

The other is recognising an issue - it's a bit unfair if 11 years worth of uni students have tuition fee debt hanging over them when those before and after don't - and saying we don't have a specific policy yet but we want to deal with this.
 

WeeGord

Well-known member
#75
?????? When stuck for a good reply, bring out the 'oven ready.'

Fancy that, a politician willing to state an ambition but holding back on firm commitments until they get the details. What's meant to be the problem? It is a very similar statement to the 350m the idiot in charge mentioned in his Brexit campaign.
To suggest there is ANY sort of equivalence here is lunacy and I'm sure you know that.
 

SuperStu

Well-known member
#76
?????? When stuck for a good reply, bring out the 'oven ready.'
The relevance is because we had two options for government, and you're claiming Corbyn lost due to "unrealistic promises". As others have pointed out Labour had a costed manifesto. The alternative was Boris's 50 hospitals and "oven ready" slogan. To me it seems delusional to say the costed manifesto was the unrealistic one.
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
#77
The relevance is because we had two options for government, and you're claiming Corbyn lost due to "unrealistic promises". As others have pointed out Labour had a costed manifesto. The alternative was Boris's 50 hospitals and "oven ready" slogan. To me it seems delusional to say the costed manifesto was the unrealistic one.
The 2017 manifesto was fully costed.
 

Cooper671

Well-known member
#79
I cant see any calculations for the £58 billion additional costs of promising to refund the WASPI pensions during the election campaign. Correct me if i am wrong though
 

WeeGord

Well-known member
#80
I cant see any calculations for the £58 billion additional costs of promising to refund the WASPI pensions during the election campaign. Correct me if i am wrong though
I can’t see any calculations at all from the Tory manifestos. That’s because they weren’t costed isn’t it?
 
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