Ched Evans

But the post I was responding to seemed to me to be equating it to the kind of stuff everyone gets up to, which it really isn't.
I don’t think he was saying it’s the kind of behaviour that everyone gets up to. Obviously I’m not sure of your age/background/social circle. But it’s possible that similar behaviour is more common than you think, also involving ‘reasonable people’.

The behaviour displayed to meet the standard in rape cases would be abhorant to any reasonable individual.

If a case goes before the courts believe me there will be a case to answer.
Again I’m not too sure of the above statements. I’ve been involved in rape investigations which have split the room (I.e a team of detectives whereby half of the think a rape has occurred and half think it hasn’t).

I’ve interviewed a rape suspect and when the interview finished, one of us thought he’d done it and the other didn’t etc.
 
I know as much as any reasonably educated and interested person about how the law (both civil and criminal) is meant to work in the UK. I'm not a lawyer or a judge and wouldn't consider myself an expert. I fully accept that TV dramas aren't reliable sources of actual courtroom life. I've not had to serve on a jury.

The problem I have is that again, you fail to address the issues (CSP were wrong to bring the charge; Jury was wrong to convict) which you've wittered on about time and again with the supposed inference being that you're party to some information that hasn't entered the public domain - or your own interpretation of the public domain info is markedly different to everyone else involved but you're somehow more correct.

Which basic facts am I plain wrong about? List them, it can't be that difficult. Just one or two would be a start.

Why do the stats for juries getting things wrong relate to this case where there was fresh evidence presented for the appeal? Had that evidence been available in the first trial, the jury may have found differently.

Even then, how do the numbers you've presented show that it's common for juries to get things wrong?

Just looking at stats for 2019 there were approx 60,000 cases in the Crown Court with a conviction rate (for sexual offences) at 67% (one of the lowest conviction rates). Assuming all of your 100 successful appeals were against those 2019 cases, and all cases were sexual offences (with the lowest conviction rate (which boosts your figures)) that would mean the numbers work out as follows:

Total cases: 60,000
Total convictions: 40,200
Total appeals: 556 (if 100 is 18%)
Total appeal reversals: 100

So 1.4% of convictions were appealed and 0.25% of convictions were overturned (according to your numbers).

Sticking to whole numbers (as a case is thing) 1 in 400 juries get it wrong.

Even if we assume none of these appeals were based on new evidence arising, it's hardly a common occurance; although I feel for the individual people affected.


This is just a logical mess. You think he was innocent. Therefore to be innocent he can't have committed rape. Therefore he didn't commit rape and the jury were wrong. It's a circular argument on steroids that fails to address the actual fact that he was found guilty. Therefore there was enough 'proof' that consent wasn't given to convince the jury that a rape occurred.

I don't know how you prove a negative. That's the major problem with rape cases in general. However, given enough CCTV and enough witness statements, a jury can reasonably judge that consent was in all probability (i.e. beyond reasonable doubt) not given.

As soon as reasonable doubt crept in (the appeal) the conviction was reversed. Ched Evans is innocent.

However, you also know that Ched Evans is a reprehensible individual, despite his innocence. I'm assuming you either know him personally or have had dealings with him as there doesn't appear to be much non-footballing information about him on the internet (other than the rape trial)?
Excellent post.

Miscarriages of justice are incredibly rare; whilst it is a matter for the jury to determine guilt or innocence, the judge ensures that the trial is fair and within the law.

So if there is a jury verdict then the judge in that trial believed that there was sufficient admissible evidence to allow that to take place, as there must have been in the Ched Evans case.

Rape convictions are very low because the conviction relies upon the lack of consent, but when there isn't any material evidence that informs that issue, then it becomes very difficult to prove. More so when alcohol or drugs are involved.

Obviously there is a moral argument in this case, which I think is more relevant in some ways to the issue of his acquittal.
 
I know as much as any reasonably educated and interested person about how the law (both civil and criminal) is meant to work in the UK. I'm not a lawyer or a judge and wouldn't consider myself an expert. I fully accept that TV dramas aren't reliable sources of actual courtroom life. I've not had to serve on a jury.

The problem I have is that again, you fail to address the issues (CSP were wrong to bring the charge; Jury was wrong to convict) which you've wittered on about time and again with the supposed inference being that you're party to some information that hasn't entered the public domain - or your own interpretation of the public domain info is markedly different to everyone else involved but you're somehow more correct.

Which basic facts am I plain wrong about? List them, it can't be that difficult. Just one or two would be a start.

Why do the stats for juries getting things wrong relate to this case where there was fresh evidence presented for the appeal? Had that evidence been available in the first trial, the jury may have found differently.

Even then, how do the numbers you've presented show that it's common for juries to get things wrong?

Just looking at stats for 2019 there were approx 60,000 cases in the Crown Court with a conviction rate (for sexual offences) at 67% (one of the lowest conviction rates). Assuming all of your 100 successful appeals were against those 2019 cases, and all cases were sexual offences (with the lowest conviction rate (which boosts your figures)) that would mean the numbers work out as follows:

Total cases: 60,000
Total convictions: 40,200
Total appeals: 556 (if 100 is 18%)
Total appeal reversals: 100

So 1.4% of convictions were appealed and 0.25% of convictions were overturned (according to your numbers).

Sticking to whole numbers (as a case is thing) 1 in 400 juries get it wrong.

Even if we assume none of these appeals were based on new evidence arising, it's hardly a common occurance; although I feel for the individual people affected.


This is just a logical mess. You think he was innocent. Therefore to be innocent he can't have committed rape. Therefore he didn't commit rape and the jury were wrong. It's a circular argument on steroids that fails to address the actual fact that he was found guilty. Therefore there was enough 'proof' that consent wasn't given to convince the jury that a rape occurred.

I don't know how you prove a negative. That's the major problem with rape cases in general. However, given enough CCTV and enough witness statements, a jury can reasonably judge that consent was in all probability (i.e. beyond reasonable doubt) not given.

As soon as reasonable doubt crept in (the appeal) the conviction was reversed. Ched Evans is innocent.

However, you also know that Ched Evans is a reprehensible individual, despite his innocence. I'm assuming you either know him personally or have had dealings with him as there doesn't appear to be much non-footballing information about him on the internet (other than the rape trial)?
I am not going to continue arguing with you scrote. You either don't understand what I am saying or are ignoring it I can't tell which it is.
 
That isn't correct.
On getting a text from McDonald he called his brother & friend & told them to go to the window to film it.
On entering the room, he didn't speak with the woman, he did just join in.
In what way did he get consent if they didn’t speak - it’s not impossible but highly unusual!?
 
I am not going to continue arguing with you scrote. You either don't understand what I am saying or are ignoring it I can't tell which it is.

I've tried to get you to explain in simple terms what you mean but you keep refusing or sidestepping.

If the difference between the first trial and the retrial was proof of consent based on the words used by the girl in previous and subsequent sexual encounters, then the evidence for consent must have been flimsy at best. The CPS acted with a duty of care to the girl after she reported being unable to remember events (red flag) and after the police spoke to the hotel receptionist (multiple red flags).

At that point there is no evidence of consent and everything points towards a predatory individual taking an opportunity and being caught bang to rights. The CPS were correct to pursue it. I don't know the full process on the adult side but with children's care, after Victoria Climbie, the flag system was always used as an early indicator because it's very straightforward.

McDonald had the time he spent with the girl leading up to the hotel as evidence that she may have given or implied consent. Ched Evans didn't. That's why the verdicts were different.

Which piece of evidence (or lack thereof) in the first trial do you think exonerates Evans (and you can't just say "he didn't rape her so he didn't rape her"). Where was the proof? And again you can't just say "there was no proof so you can't convict" because then it comes down to the balance of probability given the rest of the evidence. He turned up unannounced and then left her alone - not the actions of someone showing compassion or care for another human, in my opinion.

The jury weighed all that up and decided that it was unlikely to the point that probablity 1 that consent was given, or that Evans could reasonably assume consent.

Had they thought the probability was closer to 0.9 then they would have found not guilty.

You keep saying there's a load of reasons the jury shouldn't have come to that conclusion but when pressed you just revert to the circular logic argument that because you don't think he did it he didn't do it and therefore he shouldn't have been convicted. It's nonsense.

He was allowed the appeal and then a retrial specifically because the consent issue was brought into doubt.
 
To be fair I think that was something along the lines of- Barton and the other members of the coaching staff were criticising the players for wearing gloves etc, then Evans did a presentation which showed loads of pictures of Barton and other coaching staff wearing gloves whilst they were players.
 
In what way did he get consent if they didn’t speak - it’s not impossible but highly unusual!?
As stated by Scrote & others, the first trial & appeal judge found he hadn't.
New evidence was brought forward which showed that previously during consensual sex she had used a similar phrase as she had with McDonald & Evans.
Based on that the new jury found the prosecution hadn't proven beyond reasonable doubt that it wasn't consensual.

So let this be a lesson to us all, if you pull a girl & go back to her room & Ched Evans lets himself in & starts doing you from behind, don't exclaim "F*** me!" as there isn't a court in the land that will find him guilty of sexual assualt.
 
I don’t think he was saying it’s the kind of behaviour that everyone gets up to. Obviously I’m not sure of your age/background/social circle. But it’s possible that similar behaviour is more common than you think, also involving ‘reasonable people’.




Again I’m not too sure of the above statements. I’ve been involved in rape investigations which have split the room (I.e a team of detectives whereby half of the think a rape has occurred and half think it hasn’t).

I’ve interviewed a rape suspect and when the interview finished, one of us thought he’d done it and the other didn’t etc.
Well if half the room think there has been a rape that's a case to answer.

Reasonable people do not rape women. If you see someone wandering round absolutely mortaled and **** them you are not a reasonable person, you're a rapist. Nowt to do with my age or background. Not saying it doesn't happen often, but really it's basic morality.
 
Well if half the room think there has been a rape that's a case to answer.

Reasonable people do not rape women. If you see someone wandering round absolutely mortaled and **** them you are not a reasonable person, you're a rapist. Nowt to do with my age or background. Not saying it doesn't happen often, but really it's basic morality.
So do you think Evans did rape her?
 
I've tried to get you to explain in simple terms what you mean but you keep refusing or sidestepping.

If the difference between the first trial and the retrial was proof of consent based on the words used by the girl in previous and subsequent sexual encounters, then the evidence for consent must have been flimsy at best. The CPS acted with a duty of care to the girl after she reported being unable to remember events (red flag) and after the police spoke to the hotel receptionist (multiple red flags).

At that point there is no evidence of consent and everything points towards a predatory individual taking an opportunity and being caught bang to rights. The CPS were correct to pursue it. I don't know the full process on the adult side but with children's care, after Victoria Climbie, the flag system was always used as an early indicator because it's very straightforward.

McDonald had the time he spent with the girl leading up to the hotel as evidence that she may have given or implied consent. Ched Evans didn't. That's why the verdicts were different.

Which piece of evidence (or lack thereof) in the first trial do you think exonerates Evans (and you can't just say "he didn't rape her so he didn't rape her"). Where was the proof? And again you can't just say "there was no proof so you can't convict" because then it comes down to the balance of probability given the rest of the evidence. He turned up unannounced and then left her alone - not the actions of someone showing compassion or care for another human, in my opinion.

The jury weighed all that up and decided that it was unlikely to the point that probablity 1 that consent was given, or that Evans could reasonably assume consent.

Had they thought the probability was closer to 0.9 then they would have found not guilty.

You keep saying there's a load of reasons the jury shouldn't have come to that conclusion but when pressed you just revert to the circular logic argument that because you don't think he did it he didn't do it and therefore he shouldn't have been convicted. It's nonsense.

He was allowed the appeal and then a retrial specifically because the consent issue was brought into doubt.
Jesus you really know nothing about the law and the burden of proof, do you.

Evans does not have to prove a thing, not a thing. It's the way our legal system works.

Evans does not have to prove there was consent. The prosecution have to prove there was no consent. They couldn't and did not do this. Nor were they ever going to be able to do that to any degree of certainty.

That's why I stopped debating with you.

The jury were left with a fairly despicable man in the dock and had to decide with, no victim testimony around consent, using only cctv footage and third hand reports of the condition of the woman, whether he deserved punishing or not. They decided on balance that it was better to punish an innocent, but bad man, than let an innocent, but bad man, walk free.

The prosecution proved nothing, the evidence was flimsy and extremely circumstantial and Evans should never have been sent to jail.

You can have an opinion, that's fine, it doesn't align with my opinion, that's fine too. But to debate your opinion with me, you really need to understand a bit more about the law, burden of proof, what beyond reasonable doubt actually means, not what you think it means. Then we can debate. I clearly overestimated your undertsanding.

Firstly, I would go and read what reasonable doubt means. In simple terms it means that if you have 2 pieces of conflicting evidence that have roughly equal weight, you must ALWAYS assume the evidence that exonnerates the defendent is assuemd to be true. whilst judges have been encouraged not to use the phrase, the burden remains the same. This is exactly the reason that rape convictions are so difficult to prove, he said she said, without corroborating evidence, should always lead to an acquital. It's not fair but it is how thelegal system is supposed to work

This interpretation comes directly from the presumption of innocence, which isn't innocent until proven otherwise. A common mistake.

Now if you believe that the circumstantial evidence provided to the jurors, not in it's totality, but weighed one piece at a time, with the bar set as above, should have convicted Ched Evans, then fine, that's your opinion.

My opinion is that the CPS would have looked at that evidence and known that the only way they get a conviction is if the jury make an emotional decision to punish a fairly despicable man. It worked for them. They have to be better than that in my opinion, being a proffessional footballer with an inflated sense of self worth isn't a crime in itself. Leaving your morality at home doesn't make you a criminal. The CPS are supposed to represent you and I and are supposed to do it without prejudice or favour.

The CPS got what they wanted, it later turned out they were wrong. Should they have prosecuted? Absoloutely not, in my eyes. They played a game, put a potential victim through a court case and tarred a potentially innocent man with evidence they knew didn't pass the most basic of legal tests.
 
It's not about drunken sex. People don't get prosecuted for having drunken sex. The judge even clarifys this. It's about being so drunk you are unable to give consent. It isn't about impaired judgement, it is about being incapable of making a judgement.
Well if half the room think there has been a rape that's a case to answer.

Reasonable people do not rape women. If you see someone wandering round absolutely mortaled and **** them you are not a reasonable person, you're a rapist. Nowt to do with my age or background. Not saying it doesn't happen often, but really it's basic morality.
You state, “people don’t get prosecuted for having drunken sex”. But also you’re a rapist if you **** someone who is “mortaled”.

Obviously if someone is unconscious, unable to talk / walk etc they are definitely “mortaled”.


The last time I checked the phrase “mortaled” isn’t mentioned in the definition of rape or consent. Obviously I know what you mean though.

The point I’m a making is in real life situations many of these cases are somewhere between drunk and “mortaled”- there’s no clear definitive line between the two. It’s not an exact science is it. What about everyone who is more than drunk but not quite mortalled.

Personally I might be drunk after 5 pints, mortalled after 10, what if I’ve had 7/8/9 pints etc.

Often once you’ve heard both sides of the story you can see how the victim would feel it was clear they were too drunk to consent, but you can also see how the suspect would believe that the victim wasn’t too drunk to consent and had given consent implied consent.
 
You state, “people don’t get prosecuted for having drunken sex”. But also you’re a rapist if you **** someone who is “mortaled”.

Obviously if someone is unconscious, unable to talk / walk etc they are definitely “mortaled”.


The last time I checked the phrase “mortaled” isn’t mentioned in the definition of rape or consent. Obviously I know what you mean though.

The point I’m a making is in real life situations many of these cases are somewhere between drunk and “mortaled”- there’s no clear definitive line between the two. It’s not an exact science is it. What about everyone who is more than drunk but not quite mortalled.

Personally I might be drunk after 5 pints, mortalled after 10, what if I’ve had 7/8/9 pints etc.

Often once you’ve heard both sides of the story you can see how the victim would feel it was clear they were too drunk to consent, but you can also see how the suspect would believe that the victim wasn’t too drunk to consent and had given consent implied consent.
Implied consent is a bit of a minefield. It has a lot of grey areas, but, for example, if a drunken girl, or boy, comes back to your hotel room, that would be implied consent. Being with them at the end of an evening can be implied consent.

Grey areas come in more so when you are already in-situ of the rape. For example at a party. Entering a bedroom with you can be implied consent, but the victim already being asleep in a bedroom the defendent enters isn't implied consent. But if she wakes up and smiles at you, is that implied consent? That is where it starts to come down to interpretation. The smile certainly could be, but it also might not be.
 
Implied consent is a bit of a minefield. It has a lot of grey areas, but, for example, if a drunken girl, or boy, comes back to your hotel room, that would be implied consent. Being with them at the end of an evening can be implied consent.

Grey areas come in more so when you are already in-situ of the rape. For example at a party. Entering a bedroom with you can be implied consent, but the victim already being asleep in a bedroom the defendent enters isn't implied consent. But if she wakes up and smiles at you, is that implied consent? That is where it starts to come down to interpretation. The smile certainly could be, but it also might not be.
Yeah agree, in the real world it’s often very tricky.

And not as simple as if they’re drunk it’s fine, if there’re really mortal it’s rape etc.

Defining drunk and mortal isn’t easy,
 
You state, “people don’t get prosecuted for having drunken sex”. But also you’re a rapist if you **** someone who is “mortaled”.

Obviously if someone is unconscious, unable to talk / walk etc they are definitely “mortaled”.


The last time I checked the phrase “mortaled” isn’t mentioned in the definition of rape or consent. Obviously I know what you mean though.

The point I’m a making is in real life situations many of these cases are somewhere between drunk and “mortaled”- there’s no clear definitive line between the two. It’s not an exact science is it. What about everyone who is more than drunk but not quite mortalled.

Personally I might be drunk after 5 pints, mortalled after 10, what if I’ve had 7/8/9 pints etc.

Often once you’ve heard both sides of the story you can see how the victim would feel it was clear they were too drunk to consent, but you can also see how the suspect would believe that the victim wasn’t too drunk to consent and had given consent implied consent.
I'm not arguing with you about there being grey areas. My posts are more in reference to the original one I quoted about it being a sort of there for the grace of God sort of thing. Like you I've had professional involvement in the area - though I wouldn't want to pass myself off as an expert. Before I did this work I held a concern that say I got ***ed and hooked up with another girl who was ***ed I could get done for rape. Due to the cases I've seen go before the court I'm no longer of this opinion.
As for Evans. I've not looked into it enough to make a cast iron judgement. Im perfectly content to not want him at my club though, as my opinion doesn't really matter. Opinions I've heard about the case of those more informed than me have been negative, a lot of this is based on the payments made to witnesses that appeared at the appeal. I just couldn't be arsed with the negative publicity either.
 
Evans does not have to prove there was consent. The prosecution have to prove there was no consent.
no victim testimony around consent
I think you need to read the guidance on consent in rape cases. Especially the bit about intoxication and the capacity to consent. You clearly don't understand how the law works in the UK.

The prosecution have to persuade the jury that there is the possibility that consent can't be given and that a person (Evans) could not reasonably expect that consent was possible. At that point it is the juries responsibility to determine whether they believe consent was (a) possible and (b) given. The burden of proof is not absolute for these cases.

The prosecution were correct - in absence of any other evidence. Personally, I don't think the additional evidence in the retrial is necessarily enough to suggest competence to consent, but that jury were able to re-examine all the evidence and were perfectly within their right to come to a different conclusion. It's not clear-cut and it's never going to be. Should we just stop trying rape cases?

The CPS got what they wanted, it later turned out they were wrong.
Again, I don't think you understand the difference between "wrong to pursue as a duty of care" and "wrong because the result went against them". The fact the first trial came back with a guilty verdict is enought to prove they were right to pursue it, in my opinion.

You seem to have ignored the maths as well. Are you still maintaining that juries are commonly wrong?
 
I think you need to read the guidance on consent in rape cases. Especially the bit about intoxication and the capacity to consent. You clearly don't understand how the law works in the UK.

The prosecution have to persuade the jury that there is the possibility that consent can't be given and that a person (Evans) could not reasonably expect that consent was possible. At that point it is the juries responsibility to determine whether they believe consent was (a) possible and (b) given. The burden of proof is not absolute for these cases.

The prosecution were correct - in absence of any other evidence. Personally, I don't think the additional evidence in the retrial is necessarily enough to suggest competence to consent, but that jury were able to re-examine all the evidence and were perfectly within their right to come to a different conclusion. It's not clear-cut and it's never going to be. Should we just stop trying rape cases?


Again, I don't think you understand the difference between "wrong to pursue as a duty of care" and "wrong because the result went against them". The fact the first trial came back with a guilty verdict is enought to prove they were right to pursue it, in my opinion.

You seem to have ignored the maths as well. Are you still maintaining that juries are commonly wrong?
Whatever.
 
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