Carrick on Dijksteel and Coburn

[Scrug]

Realised I've virtually posted the same as you but in different words should have read your post before responding to Dana

I’m tired of people talking about our ‘style’ of football. It’s garbage. It’s mostly watching our centre backs pass the ball between themselves for 90 minutes aside from the occasional performance where they actually fancy going forwards.

Was great the first season, it’s been Shiite the last two. Let’s not recruit for that again eh?

 

[Block21]

I’m tired of people talking about our ‘style’ of football. It’s garbage. It’s mostly watching our centre backs pass the ball between themselves for 90 minutes aside from the occasional performance where they actually fancy going forwards.

Was great the first season, it’s been Shiite the last two. Let’s not recruit for that again eh?

Exactly, also, we were excellent with Coburn starting last season before he unfortunately got injured

He does and can play well for us, even in the cup against Leeds this season. Having a presence up there is some way to the go regardless of style. Also the lad can finish.

The only question mark against him is pitch time and staying fit, he is going to be a very good striker next season if he stays fit. I hope that's for us.

 

[Otto42]

Coburn’s more of a proper centre forward than Tommy Conway, who seems to me like the second striker in a two. Would be good to see them play together up top. We could have done with him this season given our injury record and our intention to sell LL at the right price. It will be a case of what might have been if he goes in the summer, which I think he probably will

 

[indeedido]

carrick loves a busy striker – a presser, a quick and willing runner off the ball. this is what archer, latte lath and conway were/are.

coburn just doesn’t fit how we play imo. if you have him there as a different option then you’re restricting a young player to minimal minutes, and even though i don’t rate him as highly as some, he deserves better than that.

i think we’ll move him on in the summer and bring someone in who better compliments our style

I’m past caring what Carrick loves.
I don’t see Conway as anything like Latte Lath, let alone Archer.
What Coburn deserves is an opportunity, not moving on because he doesn’t fit Carrick’s “style”.

 

[Scrug]

I’m past caring what Carrick loves.
I don’t see Conway as anything like Latte Lath, let alone Archer.
What Coburn deserves is an opportunity, not moving on because he doesn’t fit Carrick’s “style”.

There’s a lot of talk about Carrick not having a plan B. He wouldn’t do if he keeps buying the same type of player. I think if we’d kept Coburn and thrown him on in some of the games where pass pass pass wasn’t working and just had him be that focal point in the box, we’d have picked up more points and would be sitting in the playoff places.

Even if he didn’t score himself, the presence of a 6’3 striker in the box is enough to pull defenders around and create space for other players. I think we’ve been reluctant to whip it into the box this season when we could have done because we haven’t had that physical threat, especially since Latte Lath left.

 

[Paulroddam7]

I really don’t think either of them are a sufficient standard for where we want to be but they definitely both have their qualities and, ultimately, it’s difficult to get better through the door.

I’d have to agree we should have kept Coburn.

 

[Alzi]

Seems a bit premature to write Coburn off. If he can overcome his injuries then he has the potential to be a very effective striker at this level.

Unless we get promoted it makes little sense selling him in my opinion. Hopefully a new manager looks at him before making the decision to sell him for buttons.

 

[The Card Cheat]

I’m tired of people talking about our ‘style’ of football. It’s garbage. It’s mostly watching our centre backs pass the ball between themselves for 90 minutes aside from the occasional performance where they actually fancy going forwards.

Was great the first season, it’s been Shiite the last two. Let’s not recruit for that again eh?

We scored more goals in all competitions last season than in any of the last 50. This season we’re on course to score more league goals than almost every season in the last 50 years, probably the only season we’ll have scored more in was Carricks first season.
How we managing that if all we do is pass it between the centre backs for 90 minutes?
When was this hallowed time before Carrick when we were playing much more attacking entertaining football?
Some people deserve Warnick or Pulis back.

 

[Scrug]

We scored more goals in all competitions last season than in any of the last 50. This season we’re on course to score more league goals than almost every season in the last 50 years, probably the only season we’ll have scored more in was Carricks first season.
How we managing that if all we do is pass it between the centre backs for 90 minutes?
When was this hallowed time before Carrick when we were playing much more attacking entertaining football?
Some people deserve Warnick or Pulis back.

Everybody likes to watch different things mate. Some people love watching Man City, I find it robotic and boring. It’s mad how there’s no room for nuance with some people, don’t like Carrick’s football? You must want Pulis back. Makes no sense.

Where did all those goals get us? 8th?

Where are we currently? 8th.

If you’re happy with the volume of goals we score then I’m pleased for you. Personally, I’m a bit bored of being nearly men and I actually appreciate and enjoy watching solid defending. That’s been in short supply this season.

 

[The Card Cheat]

Everybody likes to watch different things mate. Some people love watching Man City, I find it robotic and boring. It’s mad how there’s no room for nuance with some people, don’t like Carrick’s football? You must want Pulis back. Makes no sense.

Where did all those goals get us? 8th?

Where are we currently? 8th.

If you’re happy with the volume of goals we score then I’m pleased for you. Personally, I’m a bit bored of being nearly men and I actually appreciate and enjoy watching solid defending. That’s been in short supply this season.

I’m not saying Carrick is above criticism and we definitely should be in a better position than we are. But it seems strange to suggest the football is sh*te and we just play around with it without purpose when we play more attacking football than any Boro manager this century.

 

[B_G]

I’m not saying Carrick is above criticism and we definitely should be in a better position than we are. But it seems strange to suggest the football is sh*te and we just play around with it without purpose when we play more attacking football than any Boro manager this century.

The football has got progressively worse during his tenure.
It started off fast flowing and it's got slower and slower and more predictable. The press has become less aggressive and less organised over time as well.

I don't think we are particularly exciting to watch and haven't been for a long time.

 

[The Card Cheat]

The football has got progressively worse during his tenure.
It started off fast flowing and it's got slower and slower and more predictable. The press has become less aggressive and less organised over time as well.

I don't think we are particularly exciting to watch and haven't been for a long time.

I think that’s reasonable and constructive , though I think he’s a victim of his own success as the first season was the best football I’ve seen us play consistently ever probably.
What I take issue with is the degree of criticism, I think it’s very harsh to call our football sh*te and aimless when we’ve scored goals at a higher rate than with any other manager in most of our lifetimes under Carrick.
That isn’t to ignore some of the obvious flaws and issues of his time with us, some of which you mentioned and I agree with.

 

[BoroMart]

We scored more goals in all competitions last season than in any of the last 50. This season we’re on course to score more league goals than almost every season in the last 50 years, probably the only season we’ll have scored more in was Carricks first season.
How we managing that if all we do is pass it between the centre backs for 90 minutes?
When was this hallowed time before Carrick when we were playing much more attacking entertaining football?
Some people deserve Warnick or Pulis back.

Spot on. We play good attacking football and have theough out his tenure. The big issue is out of possession. There are mitigating circumstances this year, in the decimation of our defence 4xGK; 3xRB; 6xLB; 7xCB - it’s been a mess

 

[B_G]

Spot on. We play good attacking football and have theough out his tenure. The big issue is out of possession. There are mitigating circumstances this year, in the decimation of our defence 4xGK; 3xRB; 6xLB; 7xCB - it’s been a mess

I think our goals scored this season is quite flattering and isn't really reflective of our season. We haven't been consistent high scorers.

At first glance our 57 goals from 38 matches looks pretty good. 1.50 goals per game.

This is similar 23/24 (1.54 goals per game).

But the truth is our total goals scored has been skewed by a few high scoring matches. Our frequency of putting multiple goals past opponents has dropped significantly this season.

Looking at Carrick's time in charge.

22/23

0 Goals - 10%
1 Goal - 26.7%
2+ Goals - 63.3%

23/24

0 Goals - 17.4%
1 Goal - 32.6%
2+ Goals - 50%

24/25

0 Goals - 23.7%
1 Goal - 39.5%
2+ Goals - 36.9%


We were scoring 2+ goals near enough twice as often in 22/23 than what we are now.
We also fire blanks more than twice as often now than what we did then.
Our goal scoring consistency has dropped off massively.

 

[BoroMart]

But the truth is our total goals scored has been skewed by a few high scoring matches. Our frequency of putting multiple goals past opponents has dropped significantly this season.

That is surely the case for any team that is near the top of the scoring charts.

We carry a persistent goal threat, with third most goals and fourth highest xG. Is it as high as our last couple of seasons, no, but they are a high bar to match.

Your split for 0, 1 or 2+. I'd look at that more naturally as 0, 1, 2, 3+. Why? 3+ will almost always win you games 3 goals is a lot (yes I know it hasn't as often this season, but statistically 3+ will)), prior to Carricks arrival, we had scored 3+ goals in a game, just 10 times in the previous 153 matches. We've scored 3+ ten times in our last 40 matches under Carrick, despite having a terrible run at times this season.

It's chalk and cheese, and I think people have gotten complacent about the attacking achievement's. Is it as good as two years ago, no, but that was our best attacking in living memory.

If we compare to the rest of the division we compare favourably, if we compare to our own historical performance with other managers it's also favourable. It's just down on Carricks last two seasons.

 

[Andy_W]

I think our goals scored this season is quite flattering and isn't really reflective of our season. We haven't been consistent high scorers.

At first glance our 57 goals from 38 matches looks pretty good. 1.50 goals per game.

This is similar 23/24 (1.54 goals per game).

But the truth is our total goals scored has been skewed by a few high scoring matches. Our frequency of putting multiple goals past opponents has dropped significantly this season.

Looking at Carrick's time in charge.

22/23

0 Goals - 10%
1 Goal - 26.7%
2+ Goals - 63.3%

23/24

0 Goals - 17.4%
1 Goal - 32.6%
2+ Goals - 50%

24/25

0 Goals - 23.7%
1 Goal - 39.5%
2+ Goals - 36.9%


We were scoring 2+ goals near enough twice as often in 22/23 than what we are now.
We also fire blanks more than twice as often now than what we did then.
Our goal scoring consistency has dropped off massively.

I don't think you can read much into stats like that, not in isolation at least.

The higher scoring games are probably when we've put our chances away, the lower scoring ones are the probably ones when we generally haven't.

Some games we've missed key players, so we create less and score less, and we concede more.

Can't think of any games where we've been near to having a full strength side out, that's going to hurt against the better teams, but might not against the worse teams.

The defending stats effect scoring stats too, when teams go 1-0 or 2-0 up most will sit back more, and most would concede less. So if we go a goal or two down, then our chances of scoring ourselves probably reduce, as we change from facing a brick wall, to two brick walls.
If we go a goal up, our chances of getting a second increase, as the other team has to open up and chase the game.

We can't really sit back, even when leading as our defence is the weakest part of our team, in ability, availability and consistency. So, if we score, teams open up and come at us, and we concede, then we have to score again etc. It kind of explains why there are a lot of goals, if we score, this season at least.

 

[BoroMart]

Interestingly we are the top goalscorers away from home, but only 9th at home. Even bottom placed Plymouth score more than us at home. Would be nice to put that right this weekend against team we smashed earlier in the season. They are definitely a back 8 away from home mind, and don't concede bucket loads. In fact they've only conceded 8 in their last 9 away games. It won't be a walk in the park

 

[festa5]

That is surely the case for any team that is near the top of the scoring charts.

We carry a persistent goal threat, with third most goals and fourth highest xG. Is it as high as our last couple of seasons, no, but they are a high bar to match.

Your split for 0, 1 or 2+. I'd look at that more naturally as 0, 1, 2, 3+. Why? 3+ will almost always win you games 3 goals is a lot (yes I know it hasn't as often this season, but statistically 3+ will)), prior to Carricks arrival, we had scored 3+ goals in a game, just 10 times in the previous 153 matches. We've scored 3+ ten times in our last 40 matches under Carrick, despite having a terrible run at times this season.

It's chalk and cheese, and I think people have gotten complacent about the attacking achievement's. Is it as good as two years ago, no, but that was our best attacking in living memory.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

The style of football that'll keep all fans happy doesn't exist.

The style that some say they want (great going forwards, no sidewards passing, no taking chances at the back and defensively sound) is unrealistic.

That's not to say calls for us to defend better or move the ball quicker etc are unrealistic or unreasonable of course. But I do think there are a minority of fans who will just never be happy.

 

[B_G]

That is surely the case for any team that is near the top of the scoring charts.

We carry a persistent goal threat, with third most goals and fourth highest xG. Is it as high as our last couple of seasons, no, but they are a high bar to match.

Your split for 0, 1 or 2+. I'd look at that more naturally as 0, 1, 2, 3+. Why? 3+ will almost always win you games 3 goals is a lot (yes I know it hasn't as often this season, but statistically 3+ will)), prior to Carricks arrival, we had scored 3+ goals in a game, just 10 times in the previous 153 matches. We've scored 3+ ten times in our last 40 matches under Carrick, despite having a terrible run at times this season.

It's chalk and cheese, and I think people have gotten complacent about the attacking achievement's. Is it as good as two years ago, no, but that was our best attacking in living memory.

If we compare to the rest of the division we compare favourably, if we compare to our own historical performance with other managers it's also favourable. It's just down on Carricks last two seasons.

2+ goals should be winning games more often than not. Can split it into 0, 1, 2 and 3+.
We still fire blanks far more often than we did last season, and even more so from the season before.

We are leaky under Carrick so we need to be consistently scoring 2+ goals to win games. 1 goal rarely wins us a game. He doesn't seem to be doing anything about the leaky defence, the philosophy seems to be to outscore our opponents. We aren't scoring 2+ goals often enough.

We did it in 63% of games in 22/23, we did it in 50% of games last season and we've done it in 37% games this season.

In terms of comparing to the other teams at the top, I don't agree their scoring profiles are similar to ours...

Coventry have scored 2+ goals in 45% of games despite scoring 2 less goals than us.

Sunderland have scored 2+ goals in 53% of matches despite scoring 2 goals less

Burnley have scored 2+ goals in 39% of matches despite scoring 5 less than us. They are a bit of an anomaly though as we all know their success has been largely down to their fantastic defence. They've also been often criticised on this board for being boring yet they have managed to score 2+ goals slightly more often than Carrick's entertainers.

Sheff United have scored 2+ goals in 50% of matches despite scoring 4 less goals than us.

Leeds have been the most impressive with 2+ games in 68% of matches and have scored the most in the league by a distance.

 

[B_G]

The higher scoring games are probably when we've put our chances away, the lower scoring ones are the probably ones when we generally haven't.

Of course the games we've scored more in, we've taken our chances. That goes without saying.

We have players who have had droughts. Lath had a long drought at the start of the season.
Azaz has been through droughts.
I don't think we have enough goals in the wide positions. I posted at the beginning the season that I thought we were light of goals in the 3 positions behind the striker and I think that has proved costly through the season. Burgzorg hasn't scored enough. Doak isn't really prolific. Azaz has contributed more goals than I expected to be honest but really he's scoring the minimum that would we want from that position. Iheanacho and Whittaker still to score.