Brexit , the negatives
- Thread starter jam69
- Start date
newusername
Well-known member
In 2017 the Labour share of the vote was higher than Blair got in 2005 & the same as in 2001. Without c.60% of 2015 UKIP voters voting Tory it would've been a Labour government lead by Corbyn.
Even in 2019 Labour got 32.1% of the vote, a higher share than Ed Milliband got in 2015, higher than Gordon Brown in 2010, higher than Kinnock, higher than Foot.
The pro-EU parties got 52% of the vote, the leave parties (Cons, Brexit & DUP) got 46% which of course means a stonking Conservative majority & a hard Brexit.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
Absolutely and you don’t need to persuade me that our FPTP system is ridiculously anti-democratic.
r00fie1
Well-known member
I`ll cut and paste that for the future.
It becomes tedious showing the facts to those who prefer not to see.
ThePrisoner
Well-known member
Don't know how accurate this is but Stephanie Flanders reckons it would take four or five US-size trade deals to compensate for the losses resulting from Brexit. Pity there's only one US, but maybe Zimbabwe and possibly Chile will take up the slack
Brexit's economic impact: early evidence and future prospects
Bonus - dissing freeports
Brexit's economic impact: early evidence and future prospects
Bonus - dissing freeports
SmallTown
Well-known member
That's very negative. I think we have signed a trade deal with Ghana. Surely their GDP is similar to the US?Don't know how accurate this is but Stephanie Flanders reckons it would take four or five US-size trade deals to compensate for the losses resulting from Brexit. Pity there's only one US, but maybe Zimbabwe and possibly Chile will take up the slack
Brexit's economic impact: early evidence and future prospects
Bonus - dissing freeports
HarryVegas
Well-known member
Bonfire Of Inanities
Belfast is alight
but we got brexit done,
hail to the armalite,
happy Easter to the gun.
And there are no alibis,
no going back,
as those little white lies
burn ugly and black.
Belfast is alight
but we got brexit done,
hail to the armalite,
happy Easter to the gun.
And there are no alibis,
no going back,
as those little white lies
burn ugly and black.
BoroMart
Well-known member
so you didn't see the manipulative media coverage against him then?
BoroMart
Well-known member
I don't belive it, it can't be because that was all just Project Fear
BoroMart
Well-known member
exactly boot boy is simplifying it. There have been hundreds of IRA funerals in the last 25 years without violence. However we now have a ramping up of tensions in the region due to the failure of brexit and thus violence. It's simplistic for people to claim that the ramping up is just because of a funeral, but then people that voted brexit like simplistic answers.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Adi you wrote...
"in response every one of the positives you offered was systematically torn apart for the flawed nonsense it was."
I disagree (is that allowed in this thread?) and with that uncalled for tone of disrespect, the Pro EU argument will never win enough people over and lose more current Labour voters. To win an election the Labour party has to be inclusive not divisive i.e. get around 45% of voters. Scotland is mainly lost to Nationalitists. which was a Labour heartland and this makes it even harder, there are plenty of Remain voters in the rest of the UK than will never vote Labour i.e unobtainable. I assume you want a Labour Government.
BM - Austerity policies began in 2009 under Gordon Brown and the policies of privatising parts of the NHS under Blair, who also funded and supported the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Inequality has been increasing for years it might have slowed down under Blair, but it still continued, the cries of "only one Job on Teesside" rang out in the Blair years as did the area's industrial and general economic decline in his years.
We all have to work for a fairer society, without any degree of tolerance of difference of opinion, it will not happen. The tolerance of difference does not mean agreement. The Conservatives will pick off working class seats with ease outside the Metro areas if Labour is not inclusive.
Lesson from recent history - Tony Benn (major Labour Politician) did not want to even want belong to the EEC in 1975, never mind the federal style European Union of 2021. The Labour party of the 1970s allowed tolerance of opinions. When it split in 1981 it was out of power until 1997.
"in response every one of the positives you offered was systematically torn apart for the flawed nonsense it was."
I disagree (is that allowed in this thread?) and with that uncalled for tone of disrespect, the Pro EU argument will never win enough people over and lose more current Labour voters. To win an election the Labour party has to be inclusive not divisive i.e. get around 45% of voters. Scotland is mainly lost to Nationalitists. which was a Labour heartland and this makes it even harder, there are plenty of Remain voters in the rest of the UK than will never vote Labour i.e unobtainable. I assume you want a Labour Government.
BM - Austerity policies began in 2009 under Gordon Brown and the policies of privatising parts of the NHS under Blair, who also funded and supported the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Inequality has been increasing for years it might have slowed down under Blair, but it still continued, the cries of "only one Job on Teesside" rang out in the Blair years as did the area's industrial and general economic decline in his years.
We all have to work for a fairer society, without any degree of tolerance of difference of opinion, it will not happen. The tolerance of difference does not mean agreement. The Conservatives will pick off working class seats with ease outside the Metro areas if Labour is not inclusive.
Lesson from recent history - Tony Benn (major Labour Politician) did not want to even want belong to the EEC in 1975, never mind the federal style European Union of 2021. The Labour party of the 1970s allowed tolerance of opinions. When it split in 1981 it was out of power until 1997.
jam69
Well-known member
No its not
BoroMart
Well-known member
The labour party did not run an austerity policy, some minor hunkering down in the immediate aftermath of a global pandemic was NOT the same as a decade long, systematic, ideological, and deeply impactful austerity policy and it is beyond disingenuous to claim so.
Blair did privatise parts mainly ancillary services such as catering and cleaning, not that I particularly agreed with it. He didn't start the policy of privatising NHS despite what you've been told by right wing media, it actually started with Thatcher. https://tribunemag.co.uk/2020/12/when-margaret-thatcher-privatised-social-care#:~:text=Many of those using private,reforms of Britain's health system
Tony Blair did not personally fund the invasion of Iraq, he supported it as did almost every Tory MP including the next three Tory PMs: Cameron, May and Johnson ALL voted in favour of military action and lets not forget that Thatcher invaded Iraq too. I'm done with being polite to those that use Blairs involvement in iraq to beat the Labour government at the time, it's fuckwittery of the highest order to think a Tory government would have done anything different......not that any of this is relevant to the point at hand, but lets set the facts on the table. As an opinion, the arab spring and Saddam being in control of Iraq still would have led to the same inevitable action because he wouldn't have tolerated inserection against him and calls for democracy. So even if we hadn't gone to war, nothing would have been solved, death, violence and abuse would only have been delayed.
Tell me a time that being working class was better than the late 90s, it was a time of massive levelling out, opportunity, jobs
Are you seriously using a self depreciating pun on a second rate striker as a way of saying labour was a failure, dear god I've read some tripe
I would argue it was marginally better then than any years bookending it. I mean the austerity years under the Tories were far far worse as were the Thatcher years. You have myopic vision if you see the Blair years as the definition of industrial and north east decline in the last 50. Honestly, thats almost beyond belief.
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Laughing
Well-known member
Adi will continuallyu talk down to everyone who has a differrrent viewpoint Redwurzel. I have no idea what was said previously, but treating people like idiots is his MO.
Centralscrutinizer
Well-known member
You don't need to be a Labour supporter to be anti this Conservative government. Too many Brexit discussions end up getting bogged down in party politics. The sad fact is our politics in general is dysfunctional now. Both main parties are self serving and factionalised with internal disputes dominating rather than looking to serve the electorate and act in the best interests of the country. Its a depressing state of affairs
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
This is funny. You got so upset on another thread that you decided to stop responding to me and then just a short while later you make an appearance on here to make a personal comment about me whilst admitting to not having read the thread. Triggered much?
I don’t treat anyone like an idiot. They put arguments forward in favour of Brexit that are routinely demolished. Nor do I talk down to anyone with a differing view. I will listen to anyone’s view on anything and be open to being persuaded. But if they put forward arguments that don’t hold up to the lightest of scrutiny then I’ll point it out. If they then feel like an idiot that is an unfortunate consequence rather than the intention.
There was no tone of disrespect whatsoever. You can disagree with what you like, just don’t think that your opinion carries the same weight as my facts. You provided what you considered to be a list of the best positives to leaving the EU. They fell apart under scrutiny. You are perfectly entitled to believe that they didn’t (some folk believe the earth is flat) but the facts still speak for themselves.
Frankly I’m not interested in winning people over. That ship has sailed. I intend to call out the nonsense when I read it or hear it, point out the obvious consequences to the disastrous decisions we have made and all the while accept that there is now very little that can be done to change it. I’m not a Labour voter incidentally and Brexit has nothing to do with party politics anyway.
Laughing
Well-known member
Whatever Adi, you see yourself one way I see you another and I am not the only one. Redwurzel made the same observation, as have others. You are unreasonable, intractable and, in my opinion at least, insufferable.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
Yet you keep making comments either to or about me. If that’s what you think I honestly couldn’t care less, the threads speak for themselves and I’m perfectly comfortable. If you can’t take it, the ignore button is your friend.