Brexit , the negatives

BoroMart said:
It's not correct that they have continued for 40 years. In fact during teh late 90s and early 00s inequality reduced. Then the financial crash happened, a decade of tory austerity happened, brexit happened, and then covid. Nothing increases inequality like disaster and we've had to endure 4 in a decade of which one was brexit.
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And actually Boromart, it is not so much the disasters but rather the response to them. They’ve all been self inflicted. Austerity as a response to the financial crash was Tory ideology on steroids and once again their policies resulted in society having their pockets pinched whilst the 1% got wealthier. That was followed by Brexit. Another heist through which the 1% are once again getting wealthier at the expense of the rest. Finally we have COVID with a response of disastrous policies and through which there has been a raid on the public purse, pouring millions and millions into the wealthiest. They keep showing us who they are. About time we listened.
 
Adi_Dem said:
An admirable plea WeeGord but fundamentally flawed I’m afraid. I don’t think many people accuse everyone who voted Leave of being racist. I’m absolutely certain that all racists voted for Brexit and that anti-immigration rhetoric was by far the biggest single factor in the vote but ultimately I am prepared to accept the premise that many folk just wanted something to change. The problem though in terms of being able to heal division is that there needs to be a critical mass of Leave voters who are prepared to accept the reality of what is happening in front of their eyes, accept that the promises they were made simply cannot and will not be delivered and stop living in this state of denial that persists. Without owning it, there will never be a legitimate place from which to unify.
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I understand that point Adi, and also consider it to be true.

However I think the biggest issue is that while we have two sides so solidly entrenched in their positions that it is going to take acceptance on both sides to allow steps towards healing.

That means that as this Brexit mess unfolds we shouldn’t be saying this is what you voted for so own it; that will further entrench their opinions and so we need to collectively say this is a bloody mess, we all need to come together to help resolve it.

While you have working class people divided like this, the Tories and their cronies are getting away with murder.

I would rather listen to those who voted Brexit (not the racist ones), and make sure I hear their opinions and respect them rather than shouting them down for voting for something that IMHO was crazy. We need to be united and need to stand together because let’s no forget that 2m people who had never voted Tory did so in 2019 and that was the difference.

We must all come together because if we don’t, the poverty, the mental health issues, the NHS being privatised, the lack of investment in public services etc will get worse and worse.
 
WeeGord said:
I understand that point Adi, and also consider it to be true.

However I think the biggest issue is that while we have two sides so solidly entrenched in their positions that it is going to take acceptance on both sides to allow steps towards healing.

That means that as this Brexit mess unfolds we shouldn’t be saying this is what you voted for so own it; that will further entrench their opinions and so we need to collectively say this is a bloody mess, we all need to come together to help resolve it.

While you have working class people divided like this, the Tories and their cronies are getting away with murder.

I would rather listen to those who voted Brexit (not the racist ones), and make sure I hear their opinions and respect them rather than shouting them down for voting for something that IMHO was crazy. We need to be united and need to stand together because let’s no forget that 2m people who had never voted Tory did so in 2019 and that was the difference.

We must all come together because if we don’t, the poverty, the mental health issues, the NHS being privatised, the lack of investment in public services etc will get worse and worse.
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As long as 40% of the UK continue to vote for a party of austerity and self interest, there won't be unity of purpose desiring a better UK for all its people.
 
WeeGord said:
I understand that point Adi, and also consider it to be true.

However I think the biggest issue is that while we have two sides so solidly entrenched in their positions that it is going to take acceptance on both sides to allow steps towards healing.

That means that as this Brexit mess unfolds we shouldn’t be saying this is what you voted for so own it; that will further entrench their opinions and so we need to collectively say this is a bloody mess, we all need to come together to help resolve it.

While you have working class people divided like this, the Tories and their cronies are getting away with murder.

I would rather listen to those who voted Brexit (not the racist ones), and make sure I hear their opinions and respect them rather than shouting them down for voting for something that IMHO was crazy. We need to be united and need to stand together because let’s no forget that 2m people who had never voted Tory did so in 2019 and that was the difference.

We must all come together because if we don’t, the poverty, the mental health issues, the NHS being privatised, the lack of investment in public services etc will get worse and worse.
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But it’s flawed. You can’t have a legitimate discussion or listen to opinions when the basic facts that are playing out in front of us are denied. There can be no unity or coming together because those that voted Leave simply aren’t prepared to have a legitimate discussion. I’ve tried for years to do that and almost every single leave voter I’ve come across maintains the delusion and the denial.
 
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WeeGord said:
However I think the biggest issue is that while we have two sides so solidly entrenched in their positions that it is going to take acceptance on both sides to allow steps towards healing.
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It is probably going to take another 20+ years for the country to get over this. It started in earnest 5 years ago with absolutely no coming together, if anything it's become more divisive and fractious. Some people will never ever admit that brexit was a sham built on lies and while that continues in large numbers then division continues. The only way anything will change is if we have a mass loss investment, jobs and business that tips people over the edge.
 
I agonised about my vote in the referendum, would I a) vote for the Conservative Government that had inflicted austerity on the country, were anti-immigrant & trying to limit freedom of movement or would I b) vote for members of the Conservative Government that had inflicted austerity on the country, were anti-immigrant & trying to remove us from the EU thereby limiting freedom of movement.

Honestly it wasn't until I was in the booth with a pen in my hand that I finally made up my mind that I wouldn't protest vote against the Government as the downside of losing EU membership was too great to vote against them.

As I've said before the following day in the office on a floor of c.80 people, half of the ones that had voted out said they didn't think Leave would win & were only voting out as a protest at the Govt, or they wanted to trigger EU reform, reduce waste, reduce CAP, subsidies, fix fishing etc. and if there was another ref' they'd change their vote. The longer its gone on they became the 'get it over with' mob.

What still irks me is that a 52%-48% split became a hard leave with barely a deal worth its name in sight. There is no way that if the vote had gone the other way we'd be using Euros now and told it was "the will of the people", the will of 48% of the population have been totally ignored in the whole process.
 
Adi_Dem said:
But it’s flawed. You can’t have a legitimate discussion or listen to opinions of the basic facts that are playing out in front of us are denied. There can be no unity or coming together because those that voted Leave simply aren’t prepared to have a legitimate discussion. I’ve tried for years to do that and almost every single leave voter I’ve come across maintains the delusion and the denial.
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I really do hear you Adi, and I am just as frustrated as you are. I guess the point I am making (not very clearly) is this - whilst those who voted Brexit dig their heels in and feel as though they are sneered at or looked down on by Remainers, they will continue to hold their position. When the trickle of Brexit fallout becomes a torrent we need to not chastise the people who voted for it but to listen and by doing so, they will hopefully show the same courtesy. That is when we can start to fix things and only then, because while we are in 2 firmly entrenched camps we are all losers except the very small percentage at the top.

It's not a very good analogy at all but I think of it a little like the prodigal son - we must forget past sins on all sides of the equation to be able to come back together and unite again, and without doing so we only have very, very bad times ahead of us.
 
WeeGord said:
I really do hear you Adi, and I am just as frustrated as you are. I guess the point I am making (not very clearly) is this - whilst those who voted Brexit dig their heels in and feel as though they are sneered at or looked down on by Remainers, they will continue to hold their position. When the trickle of Brexit fallout becomes a torrent we need to not chastise the people who voted for it but to listen and by doing so, they will hopefully show the same courtesy. That is when we can start to fix things and only then, because while we are in 2 firmly entrenched camps we are all losers except the very small percentage at the top.

It's not a very good analogy at all but I think of it a little like the prodigal son - we must forget past sins on all sides of the equation to be able to come back together and unite again, and without doing so we only have very, very bad times ahead of us.
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No, your point is really clear, I just think it’s flawed. I don’t think it’s a question of listening to Leave voters and finding common ground unless or until they are able to acknowledge and accept reality.

That’s not two entrenched camps refusing to listen. That is one camp refusing to accept objective and visible facts. It assumes an equivalence of facts and opinion as if one deserves equal billing to the other.

That’s why I don’t believe unity is possible, not because each side is unwilling to listen to the other but because one side is not engaging legitimately and no amount of bridge building or listening will therefore bring common ground. Only one ‘side’ is able to unify and it isn’t the remain side.
 
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WeeGord said:
To a degree I understand why some people voted for Brexit, because there has been such a huge division in society that has grown exponentially for many, many years.

They saw an opportunity to vote for change, to vote for something different and I understand that. The problem is, they kicked the wrong dog IMHO.
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WeeGord said:
I don’t for one minute believe that the vast majority of people voted to leave for reasons of racism or xenophobia.
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So how do you account for the fact that the same people were given a far better opportunity for change under a Corbyn led Labour government and voted against it?
 
WeeGord said:
I don’t for one minute believe that the vast majority of people voted to leave for reasons of racism or xenophobia. Undoubtedly, a significant minority did but I still believe the majority voted for something they believed or hoped would improve their lot. Sadly, that doesn’t appear to be the case but we need to heal the divisions, take stock and look to how we can at least get back on the front foot as a nation.
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I suspect most people tied racism/xenephobia with improving their lot. Some were explicit about it, others not so much.
Too late to heal divisions. UK is probably finished now. A one thousand year arc of history will be completed within the next couple of decades.
 
Scrote said:
So how do you account for the fact that the same people were given a far better opportunity for change under a Corbyn led Labour government and voted against it?
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Absolutely right. Whatever your view of Corbyn, what was on offer was a chance to really shake up the status quo, a real opportunity to vote for something genuinely different. If Brexit was just about giving the establishment a bloody nose then why was this opportunity spurned?
 
Scrote said:
So how do you account for the fact that the same people were given a far better opportunity for change under a Corbyn led Labour government and voted against it?
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What about people so against Brexit but still voted for this government.
 
Kosovo said:
What about people so against Brexit but still voted for this government.
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I'm not sure what point you're making here?

My response was about people that desperately wanted to change the UK but didn't take the opportunity when presented.

You appear to be asking why people who didn't want change in UK governance voted for no change in UK governance?

I'd accept that many people voting Tory didn't realise that Tory 2019 was markedly different to Tory 2017 and vastly diffferent to Tory 1990.
 
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