Brexit barriers and the young: a new deal is needed

Norman_Conquest

Norman_Conquest

Well-known member
The above headline in the Guardian today talks about how young people wanting to visit the EU have been shafted by Brexit and have paid the price for the mistakes of their elders. It suggests that we should allow people under 30 to work in each other's countries so they can gain experience and opportunities.

I would be happy with this as a starting point for restoring ties with the EU but don't think we will ever reverse the decision of leaving the EU.

www.theguardian.com

The Guardian view on Brexit barriers and the young: a new deal is needed | Editorial

Editorial: A House of Lords report is right to demand action to restore lost possibilities to the under-30s
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Norman_Conquest said:
The above headline in the Guardian today talks about how young people wanting to visit the EU have been shafted by Brexit and have paid the price for the mistakes of their elders. It suggests that we should allow people under 30 to work in each other's countries so they can gain experience and opportunities.

I would be happy with this as a starting point for restoring ties with the EU but don't think we will ever reverse the decision of leaving the EU.

www.theguardian.com

The Guardian view on Brexit barriers and the young: a new deal is needed | Editorial

Editorial: A House of Lords report is right to demand action to restore lost possibilities to the under-30s
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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We will reverse it. If youth mobility works then people will accept FOM as the electorate changes. The majority of people coming were under 30 anyway.

Once people grow up about immigration and realise that people move, then the benefits of being in will all become apparent.
 
I don't think we'll need to reverse "the decision".

Over time we'll make agreements with Europe that gradually bring us closer to the position we were as members, without ever formally rejoining. By then time that would be the last step to go fully pre-referendum the EU may not still exist in its current form anyway.

Basically years of slowly fixing the damage without ever having to admit any mistake...
 
Norman_Conquest said:
It suggests that we should allow people under 30 to work in each other's countries so they can gain experience and opportunities.
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This would just exacerbate the existing problem of wage stagnation which is the primary good reason for not having freedom of movement. FoM adversely affects low/unskilled by increasing labour supply. Far more people want to come to the UK and work than want to go the other way and so the people that are negatively impacted are those that have to compete for jobs with people willing to work for less than minimum wage.

There are some specific things that are problematic as pointed out in that article which can be solved with a bit of co-operation. We don't need to rejoin the EU to have specific visas for touring musicians. We don't have to rejoin the EU to go back to having ID lists instead of passports for visiting school groups etc. A bit of co-operation can go a long way to alleviate a lot of the issues. We want to avoid a situation where we allow companies just to import foreign workers because it is cheaper but there is no reason we can't be flexible on specific areas.
 
Chutney said:
I don't think we'll need to reverse "the decision".

Over time we'll make agreements with Europe that gradually bring us closer to the position we were as members, without ever formally rejoining. By then time that would be the last step to go fully pre-referendum the EU may not still exist in its current form anyway.

Basically years of slowly fixing the damage without ever having to admit any mistake...
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I wish I could be so confident. The Tories are unlikely to do it because of the loudmouth extreme Right. And I really can't see the current Labour party doing anything if they win the next election because of the loudmouth extreme Right backed up by a Tory opposition.
 
I agree with it lots of people do working gap years and this kind of thing makes it possible for young people to have the freedom to work and explore the world. We have thia already in Australia and Newzealand
 
While they’re at it. Although some countries have eased artist and work and touring rules.
The UK should accept the proposal put forward by the EU, pertaining to this group only, to return more or less what was the mutually beneficial situation that existed before Brexit. The genius Frost said no.
 
The ERG part of the Tory Party don't seem as powerful as say they were in 2020. UKIP have almost vanished and they no longer badger Tory MPs say at Conferences etc. Their focus seems to be on asyulum seekers crossing the Channel.

I am still confident there is a middle way of the UK working with other European countries in some sort of Single Market arrangement.
 
Boro4life said:
I agree with it lots of people do working gap years and this kind of thing makes it possible for young people to have the freedom to work and explore the world. We have thia already in Australia and Newzealand
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A lot of teachers Aussie/Kiwi young teachers come to the UK on visas. I think there are something like 3 years in length. Some apply to be UK citizens and take the tests.

In 2022 - The UK had net migration of over 500,000 people i.e. its still a relatively attractive destination for people to live. It will be interesting if this trend continues.
 
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Capybara said:
I wish I could be so confident. The Tories are unlikely to do it because of the loudmouth extreme Right. And I really can't see the current Labour party doing anything if they win the next election because of the loudmouth extreme Right backed up by a Tory opposition.
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I keep harbouring this probably misguided notion that at some point we'll end up with grown ups in charge again.
 
Nano said:
This would just exacerbate the existing problem of wage stagnation which is the primary good reason for not having freedom of movement. FoM adversely affects low/unskilled by increasing labour supply. Far more people want to come to the UK and work than want to go the other way and so the people that are negatively impacted are those that have to compete for jobs with people willing to work for less than minimum wage.

There are some specific things that are problematic as pointed out in that article which can be solved with a bit of co-operation. We don't need to rejoin the EU to have specific visas for touring musicians. We don't have to rejoin the EU to go back to having ID lists instead of passports for visiting school groups etc. A bit of co-operation can go a long way to alleviate a lot of the issues. We want to avoid a situation where we allow companies just to import foreign workers because it is cheaper but there is no reason we can't be flexible on specific areas.
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But we still have the same if not higher net immigration than we did as a member, all from poorer countries, extra-European countries. The only difference now is that employers and the state aren't beholden to provide these people with rights as they were EU citizens.
 
I suspect this is a topic that will be talked about a lot more in about 4-5 years time when we are coming to the end of the first term of a labour govt, with greater SM and CU access on the labour manifesto for the election in 2028
 
LaPennaBianca said:
But we still have the same if not higher net immigration than we did as a member, all from poorer countries, extra-European countries. The only difference now is that employers and the state aren't beholden to provide these people with rights as they were EU citizens.
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We have high net immigration but it is spread throughout the economy instead of all at the bottom end causing wage stagnation for the poorest. People can only come here if they meet the criteria which are primarily linked to specific skills shortages. You can't have a skills shortage in an unskilled job. If people don't want to do an unskilled job it is because the pay isn't high enough. The solution is wage inflation. If people don't want to do a skilled job it is usually because it is too difficult to train to do that skill in the required timeframe hence the need for immigration. Some of that should still be managed and temporary. For example, we have a shortage of Drs and Nurses. Short term we bring them in from outside but the long term strategy should be to train more of our own.
 
Redwurzel said:
For me at the heart of the EU referendum vote was anger, from those "left behind". It may come out as stopping free movement, but free movement was not at the root cause. If wages were increasing in real terms for UK working class people and job opportunities, there would have been much less anger.
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This.

Blame anything but the real cause of their plight. As instructed.
 
Nano said:
We have high net immigration but it is spread throughout the economy instead of all at the bottom end causing wage stagnation for the poorest. People can only come here if they meet the criteria which are primarily linked to specific skills shortages. You can't have a skills shortage in an unskilled job. If people don't want to do an unskilled job it is because the pay isn't high enough. The solution is wage inflation. If people don't want to do a skilled job it is usually because it is too difficult to train to do that skill in the required timeframe hence the need for immigration. Some of that should still be managed and temporary. For example, we have a shortage of Drs and Nurses. Short term we bring them in from outside but the long term strategy should be to train more of our own.
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All those skilled workers on seasonal work visas.

Also, the wage for a 'skilled worker' visa is £26,200 p.a. or £10.75 an hour. That is less than Pret pay.

Wage stagnation is caused by greedy employers, not EU immigration.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
All those skilled workers on seasonal work visas.

Also, the wage for a 'skilled worker' visa is £26,200 p.a. or £10.75 an hour. That is less than Pret pay.

Wage stagnation is caused by greedy employers, not EU immigration.
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It's probably set at that level for nurses. If we didn't have such a shortage or we paid them properly it would be higher.

Also, your maths is way off or you haven't read the requirements properly.

£26.2k is £12.59 per hour for 40 hrs a week or £13.44 for 37.5 hours. (£12.59 x 40hrs x 52 weeks).

£10.75 per hour is only £22,360.

The requirements are £26.2k or £10.75 if you meet certain criteria:
> the job is in a shortage occupation
> under 26, studying or a recent graduate, or in professional training
> have a science, technology, engineering or maths (STEM) PhD level qualification that’s relevant to your job (if you have a relevant PhD level qualification in any other subject your salary must be at least £23,580)
> have a postdoctoral position in science or higher education

Wage stagnation is caused by supply and demand. If someone is willing to do the job for minimum wage then that is what employers will pay. If they can get away with paying minimum wage and charging rent for on-site accommodation of 6 to a shipping crate and selling food to employees via the on-site shop to recoup most of the salary then employers will do that as well.

I'm not going to argue with you that rates are low or that people aren't paid enough. I fully agree with that, 100%. One of the problems is that the lowest wages never rising gives no incentives for higher wages to rise which keeps everyone's wages down. If you could get paid the same for doing an unskilled job as one you had to train and get experience for then why would anyone choose to spend time, money and effort doing it? Keeping wages low at the bottom affects everyone. Supply and demand sees wages rising when supply of labour is low. That in turn pushes wages up further up the chain to retain staff.
 
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