Blur at the BBC

[atypical_boro]

Pretentious is such a lazy trope to be levelled at an artist. Blur absolutely are not pretentious in any way. They're moderately experimental, but they're hardly some high falluting avante garde band who refuse to play anything but the most impossible to play jazz chords


But lets be honest here, the Gallagher brothers are as thick as a boxing day turd, whereas all the members of Blur are moderately intelligent. That's nothing to do with class, it's to do with intellect. So it's a pretty fair comment about their lyric writing. That's not to say Blur haven't had the odd terrible lyric, they have.


If they were clever I'd happily big that up, but the music they wrote was pretty simplistic. Chord progressions were really bog standard, bass lines were largely playing the root note, the lead parts were good but almost exclusively pentatonic based, there was no use of interesting modes, many of the songs were in the major key (which to me helps with keeping upbeat and popular, but lowers interest), extended chords were scarce, they didn't really play with tension in songs. It's not pretentious to play with those things in your songwriting it's just learning your craft properly. Oasis did the basics well, and did it with attitude, but couldn't be bothered to improve themselves. They and were effectively the 90s equivalent of a boy band.....a lad band, living off tales of bad behaviour and sound bites.

They were an important band still, and you can't help but sing along, in the way that you can't help popping into a kebab shop after 8 beers, it tastes great in the moment, but it's not a good pub meal, or a nice restaurant.

Opinions eh

 

[BoroMart]

Opinions eh

part opinion, part fact.

 

[atypical_boro]

part opinion, part fact.

Well you haven’t actually said which bits you think are just your opinions TBF mate. But I think I get the jist.

Anyway, if we’re doing analogies, I don’t actually want a “nice restaurant” more than a couple of times a year and I’m not really into fine dining, in fact I find a lot of it quite wankey.

I’ve played the guitar for 25 years and I don’t consider myself musically ignorant, but I just think music makes you feel a certain way and it’s very personal. My critique of Blur above was very much a personal perspective.

 

[BoroMart]

Well you haven’t actually said which bits you think are just your opinions TBF mate. But I think I get the jist.

Anyway, if we’re doing analogies, I don’t actually want a “nice restaurant” more than a couple of times a year and I’m not really into fine dining, in fact I find a lot of it quite wankey.

I’ve played the guitar for 25 years and I don’t consider myself musically ignorant, but I just think music makes you feel a certain way and it’s very personal. My critique of Blur above was very much a personal perspective.

so you get just how basic the music is. I guess even Noel, who isn't shy at letting his ego do the talking sums it up best when he said he was an average guitar player at best. He's probably overstating himself still

He did used to write some good melodic stuff, but less so these days, hasn't written a good solo for 25 years.

The bits that were facts, were the lack of technical stuff used in oasis song writing. That's not opinion, but if it's what floats your boat, knock yourself out with it. It isn't pretentious to go beyond that.

Like I said though, I'm not quite sure what is supposed to be pretentious about anything Blur did.

 

[atypical_boro]

so you get just how basic the music is. I guess even Noel, who isn't shy at letting his ego do the talking sums it up best when he said he was an average guitar player at best. He's probably overstating himself still

He did used to write some good melodic stuff, but less so these days, hasn't written a good solo for 25 years.

The bits that were facts, were the lack of technical stuff used in oasis song writing. That's not opinion, but if it's what floats your boat, knock yourself out with it. It isn't pretentious to go beyond that.

Like I said though, I'm not quite sure what is supposed to be pretentious about anything Blur did.

Of course the music is basic, it’s meant to be.
Noel doesn’t even profess to be as good as average on the guitar, hence why he shirked playing lead as soon as he had a vacancy in the lineup.

But music isn’t really about “facts” to me.

To me, it’s “pretentious” to call Song2 experimental or innovative, as some Blur fans do. It’s a 2 minute pseudo-metal bar chord based riff with crap lyrics and wailing. It makes Digsy’s Dinner sound like the Velvet Underground. But this is just my opinion. If others find something really deep and artistic in it - fine.

It is also Blur’s best known or at least “most streamed” song, I’m pretty sure. That said, they have done some experimental stuff, but I think they’re definitely at their best when they’re sticking to the basics and just being Blur, much like Oasis.

 

[BoroMart]

But music isn’t really about “facts”.

No but facts are about facts.

To me, it’s “pretentious” to call Song2 experimental or innovative, as some Blur fans do. It’s a 2 minute pseudo-metal bar chord based riff with crap lyrics and wailing. It makes Digsy’s Dinner sound like the Velvet Underground. But this is just my opinion. If others find something really deep and artistic in it - fine.

Song 2 was them writing a joke song to annoy the record company manager. I don't think anyone sees that as experimental. But like I said, I don't see them as particularly experimental, they're not PJ Harvey in the last 10 years, or Sonic Youth, or Captain Beefheart. They just weren't repetitive, and tried to learn and improve.

It probably helps that they weren't dismissive of anything and everything unlike the Gallaghers. Like you said he ran out of steam quickly as a writer, I see that as because he has so little interest or respect for most other musicians, they're either working class geezers like his mates Lennon, Weller and Marr, or they're pretentious. His reverse snobbery has ultimately been his most crippling character trait and has stopped him getting external influences that might have saved his songwriting.

I believe Albarn grew up in some strange hippie culture type existence, probably why he has so many influences in his music because he's not afraid of something being 'different', 'alternative' and isn't obsessed with not looking like a soft ponce in front of his mates.

 

[atypical_boro]

Like you said he ran out of steam quickly as a writer, I see that as because he has so little interest or respect for most other musicians, they're either working class geezers like his mates Lennon, Weller and Marr, or they're pretentious.

I don’t think you’ve got this bit right to be honest. He has a genuinely very wide range of musical tastes, but he had a lot to write about between the ages of 16 and 30, in his bedroom on an acoustic guitar, and he wasn’t “experimental” enough to try and make it sound in any way complex, the songs sold themselves based on their simplicity and relatable, if basic, lyrics. Say what you want about him, but it worked commercially to an enormous extent, so you can understand why he wouldn’t experiment until he’d achieved a large degree of wealth. He had no other way of making money.

After that, he was simply trying to write songs for Liam to sing, and he didn’t want to do it. He wanted to experiment, but he was trapped in the band. By the time he went solo, he was no longer “fashionable” and any experimentation he’s done as a solo artist has been dismissed by people who stopped liking him 25 years ago. He knows himself he’s totally missed the boat on that.

 

[atypical_boro]

Song 2 was them writing a joke song to annoy the record company manager.

Yeah I had read that before. But their “joke song” is the track they’re probably best known for globally (Parklife isn’t as popular abroad). It’s not as if they too haven’t reaped the benefits of writing “basic” tracks with lazy lyrics. But they’re perceived to be “intelligent” so it’s somehow seen as a superior achievement to Noel bashing out Supersonic in 20 minutes because the record company got cold feet about releasing Bring It On Down as a single.

 

[BoroMart]

I don’t think you’ve got this bit right to be honest. He has a genuinely very wide range of musical tastes, but he had a lot to write about between the ages of 16 and 30, in his bedroom on an acoustic guitar, and he wasn’t “experimental” enough to try and make it sound in any way complex, the songs sold themselves based on their simplicity and relatable, if basic, lyrics. Say what you want about him, but it worked commercially to an enormous extent.

I'm not sure he has, 90% of bands I've heard him talk about it's negative. He like the manchester scene from the 80s, the jam, and a couple of other similar bits and hates pretty much everything else.

The songs sold on the melody, the attitude, and culture. I'm not sure singing songs about lasagne, or a wonderwall, they didn't know what a shakermaker was or a backbeat, relatable seems to be over-reaching. It was the confidence of the delivery of the lyrics that people enjoyed, and because they weren't complicated they could sing along, even if it meant nothing.

It did work commercially, certainly in this country, never really broke the states though. I remember in about 98 buying a ticket and going to see them same night in DC it was only half full. Anyway I'm not sure commercial success is a guide of anything, I mean Celine Dion is one of the best selling artists of all time, and she's effing awful. Popularism is as bad in art as it is in cuisine and is in politics.

 

[atypical_boro]

I'm not sure he has, 90% of bands I've heard him talk about it's negative. He like the manchester scene from the 80s, the jam, and a couple of other similar bits and hates pretty much everything else.

The songs sold on the melody, the attitude, and culture. I'm not sure singing songs about lasagne, or a wonderwall, they didn't know what a shakermaker was or a backbeat, relatable seems to be over-reaching. It was the confidence of the delivery of the lyrics that people enjoyed, and because they weren't complicated they could sing along, even if it meant nothing.

It did work commercially, certainly in this country, never really broke the states though. I remember in about 98 buying a ticket and going to see them same night in DC it was only half full. Anyway I'm not sure commercial success is a guide of anything, I mean Celine Dion is one of the best selling artists of all time, and she's effing awful. Popularism is as bad in art as it is in cuisine and is in politics.

Well neither band broke the states really. Wonderwall is still pretty well known over there though.

The songs that were relatable were mostly on DM - Live Forever, Rock N Roll Star, Up In The Sky, Bring It On Down, Cigarettes and Alcohol, Slide Away, quickly followed by Whatever. Shakermaker was never one of the more popular tracks and it still surprises me it was a single.

And people actually CAN relate to songs about going to someone’s house for tea (lasagne).

I’d agree with your comment about melody/culture/attitude with regards the second album more so. By then a huge proportion of British people had forged a bond with the band and their “ordinaryness”.

Commercial success is the nearest thing you can get to “facts” about which acts are “good” and “bad”, but as I say, music isn’t about facts to me and of course sales don’t prove a thing.

What I can understand, however, is why a working class lad with no qualifications, singled out for physical abuse by his dad, and working on a building site, would take millions of album sales as a sort of winning formula. It was never meant to be artistic, it was just meant to be good. Most of the country’s youth throwing money at you suggests that they think it’s good.

He basically only ever slags off pop artists who don’t write their own music, or co-write with professional writers. He certainly doesn’t slag off Blur, or most other widely acclaimed artists from the past. He loves a lot of underground stuff I haven’t even heard of, but of course it doesn’t make headlines when he praises them.

 

[BoroMart]

We are all a summary of our influences.

Noels top 10 favourite artist:
1)The Beatles
2)The Rolling Stones
3)The Who
4)The Sex Pistols
5)The Kinks
6)The La's
7)Pink Floyd
8)The Bee Gees
9)The Specials
10)(Peter Green's) Fleetwood Mac

Damons, I can only find his 3 fave albums:

The Poet – Bobby Womack
“I could have chosen three or four of Bobby’s. Records that kill me every time. Along with Tony Allen, he’s one of the biggest inspirations of my musical life.”

World Psychedelic Classics 5: Who is William Onyeabor? – William Onyeabor
“The more I learn about this man, the more of an enigma he becomes, but I can’t think of a more joyous thing than ‘Fantastic Man’.”

Low – David Bowie
“The sound of David and Brian absorbing punk then taking it to Berlin to produce a futuristic record, right on the frontline of the Cold War.”

Interesting factoids.

 

[BoroMart]

Commercial success is the nearest thing you can get to “facts” about which acts are “good” and “bad”, but as I say, music isn’t about facts to me and of course sales don’t prove a thing.

It isn't close to a fact, as the celine dion example proves. Popularism isn't a sign of artistic excellence. McDonalds isn't the height of culinary art, Madonna isn't the greatest female singer ever, and the guy that took a photo of the tennis players **** for Athena isn't the worlds greatest photographer.

 

[BoroMart]

Well neither band broke the states really. Wonderwall is still pretty well known over there though.

It isn't known anywhere near as much as song 2, your average american doesn't know who oasis are, but many know song 2, mostly through being played at sports events.

 

[atypical_boro]

It isn't close to a fact, as the celine dion example proves. Popularism isn't a sign of artistic excellence. McDonalds isn't the height of culinary art, Madonna isn't the greatest female singer ever, and the guy that took a photo of the tennis players **** for Athena isn't the worlds greatest photographer.

I didn’t say it was close to a fact. I said it was the nearest thing you can get to a fact. There is no other measure of what is “good”, only opinions.

McDonald’s doesn’t profess to be culinary art, it’s popularity is a result of providing affordable food that most people have a regular use for. “Culinary art” is something few people care about, globally speaking.

That list for Noel looks very out of date by the way. No idea why the Smiths aren’t on it, where’s it come from? I’ve never heard him talk about the Specials, but fair enough.

Madonna is arguably the best-known female solo artist of the 20th century. It isn’t about being a “good singer”. In fact she is widely regarded as being an icon of popular culture, there are few who could make a bigger claim to that title.

Ha, he may not be the world’s greatest photographer but he certainly had a knack for timing.

You’re measuring a lot of this stuff by things that you yourself may want to be judged on in their shoes, but many people don’t. Oasis mastered something musically/culturally, whatever it was. In my view, Blur were a good band but didn’t really master anything. Just my view.

 

[BoroMart]

You’re measuring a lot of this stuff by things that you yourself may want to be judged on in their shoes, but many people don’t. Oasis mastered something musically/culturally, whatever it was. In my view, Blur were a good band but didn’t really master anything. Just my view

And that’s the thing that you are struggling with, you can measure art. There are no metrics. Popularity isn’t a measure of art, it’s a measure of popularity. Oasis achieved financial success but as you’ve already alluded Noel missed the boat on actually meeting his artistic goals and getting respect from his peers.

As for mastering…you can’t master art. It’s impossible, that’s the point. Oasis mastered exactly as much as blur in any relevant sense

 

[atypical_boro]

And that’s the thing that you are struggling with, you can measure art. There are no metrics. Popularity isn’t a measure of art, it’s a measure of popularity. Oasis achieved financial success but as you’ve already alluded Noel missed the boat on actually meeting his artistic goals and getting respect from his peers.

As for mastering…you can’t master art. It’s impossible, that’s the point. Oasis mastered exactly as much as blur in any relevant sense

I’m not struggling with it, I fully agree you can’t measure art. You can only give opinion. In my opinion a lot of Blur’s stuff is pretentious, ie non-sensical drivel that purports to be something deeper. Just my opinion mate. Your opinion is clearly different and that’s fine.

They do have a lot of good tracks though, as I say I own every album.

Noel is respected by most of his peers, including Damon.

 

[BoroMart]

I’m not struggling with it, I fully agree you can’t measure art. You can only give opinion. In my opinion a lot of Blur’s stuff is pretentious, ie non-sensical drivel that purports to be something deeper

Have Blur ever stated their work to be something deeper? Or is that your interpretation, a sort of reverse snobbery because they aren't as working class as the Gallaghers? Part of that imagery is probably the fault of PR companies at the time, so it isn't entirely surprising that some people believe that. Have you got some examples of Blurs pretentiousness? Curious, because I just don't see it.

Noel is respected by most of his peers, including Damon.

I think most of his peers is stretching it. I think he's fairly disliked and seen as bar 2 or 3 songs pretty mediocre.

 

[atypical_boro]

Have Blur ever stated their work to be something deeper? Or is that your interpretation, a sort of reverse snobbery because they aren't as working class as the Gallaghers? Part of that imagery is probably the fault of PR companies at the time, so it isn't entirely surprising that some people believe that. Have you got some examples of Blurs pretentiousness? Curious, because I just don't see it.


I think most of his peers is stretching it. I think he's fairly disliked and seen as bar 2 or 3 songs pretty mediocre.

Well he worked with lots of pretty “credible” musicians. Robert Smith and Pet Shop Boys being the latest, and the Black Keys.

Have you ever watched the documentary “Live Forever”? It’s not about Oasis, but the era as a whole.

 

[The_Lizards_Jumpers]

@atypical_boro - your defence of Oasis on every thread about them is admirable (I assume you're the person I disagreed with on Noel's patronage of the Hacienda?) but I think you may be blinded by your love for the Burnage brothers somewhat.

 

[atypical_boro]

@atypical_boro - your defence of Oasis on every thread about them is admirable (I assume you're the person I disagreed with on Noel's patronage of the Hacienda?) but I think you may be blinded by your love for the Burnage brothers somewhat.

Of course I am. That could be said about any act any of us are “into”. We all have our favourites. Could say the same about anyone “defending” Blur. We’re all “blinded” by our love of MFC aren’t we?

The thing is I could probably pass as an Oasis “historian” so if I see an inaccuracy I can’t help but comment. Your comments about Noel’s claims about the Hacienda weren’t entirely correct, and seemed to be echoing the comments of that bloke who sells the hot sauce on Twitter which I imagine caught fire amongst a lot of folk who don’t like Oasis. Doesn’t mean they were right though.