Are you in favour of the latest deal with the EU ?

HolgateCorner said:
Don’t you think it’s time to unite behind Brexit? It was decided by a democratic vote and endorsed by Johnson’s election win largely fought on the single issue of getting it done.

We have to look to the future don’t we? Starmer‘s energy would be better spent attacking Johnson on the Covid shambles, people going hungry, the wealth gap and unemployment. The EU thing has been a Tory indulgence aided by the media, there is nothing in it for Labour.
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This commentary in the Guardian is the type of forward thinking we need. "The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Brexit | The Guardian" https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk
 
BoroMart said:
what does that mean in real terms rather than slogans?
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I mean that the Labour Party have to accept it has happened and look to work within the ‘deal’ to maximise it for the working people of the country. There will be some opportunities and Starmer must present the opportunities for the person in the street not just let it become exploited by Tories on behalf of the rich.

There is also an ongoing situation with details to be sorted out in the years to come, in my view this can also be manipulated by Labour at the next election in terms of proposing ‘adjustments’ to the trading arrangements in favour of the people rather than just business owners.

If I were Starmer, and he is a clever man, I would have the Labour Think Tanks all over it like a rash seeing where it can be pushed in Labour’s favour at the next election.

This shambolic Tory set up is going to leave one almighty mess behind it, Starmer needs to tell everybody where he will improve the country and that includes how he will improve our deal with Europe.

Brexit will never be over because like being in the EU it’s a moving feast, it has no end, Labour have to work with it to their advantage.
 
Al true Holgate whining only strengthens the tory hold and brexit is not done and won't be in 2024 either.

The deal will move bit by bit as the economy suffers the next election is likely to be fought around the relationship we have with the customs union and single market.

The tories a few weeks ago wanted to talk about brexit this year they will not want it mentioned as the reality bites.

That's where the next election is won or lost.
 
An interesting thread with everyone trying to put forward rational explanations for something that was almost entirely sold to us on emotional manipulation and triggers.
Whenever the senior leave figures were asked to explain the advantages of us leaving...their answers fell apart very quickly. Because it always came back to key trigger words. Control, Sovereignty, Laws and Borders...and the zingers. Fish and Immigration. They’ve already sold out on Fish, and Immigration will follow.
That’s why nothing was really written down for presentation.
Happy New Year.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I mean that the Labour Party have to accept it has happened and look to work within the ‘deal’ to maximise it for the working people of the country.
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They have, that is why he whipped to vote the deal through, they don't like it but have accepted it
 
BoroMart said:
They have, that is why he whipped to vote the deal through, they don't like it but have accepted it
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Yes and I think they have done the right thing, I don’t buy into this ‘because they backed it they now have to take responsibility for it’.

Sometimes you do things for the national interest and to get on with the future, it doesn’t mean it becomes Labour’s fault when things go wrong.

I’ve no doubt Starmer will very effectively nail the Tories and Johnson in particular for the problems which will come along.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Sometimes you do things for the national interest and to get on with the future, it doesn’t mean it becomes Labour’s fault when things go wrong.
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Nothing to do with the national interest, this deal was going through regardless of the Labour vote. It couldn't fail. However, abstaining would have distanced labour from any future problems. Starmer can't do that now because he whipped his party to support the deal.
 
This is the best Remain/Rejoin analysis I've read

This EU has set out a way back to Rejoin…but many of Remainers still don’t get it....

How many of you wanging on about Starmer actually read the treaty or commentary on it?

Of course it’s lousy. But in 1 way it’s good:
If you’d read it, you'd know EU have cleverly & quite deliberately set out a way back to rejoin..

...with big bl**dy lanterns to mark the way

The treaty sets up not just a framework for constant negotiations but 5 year reviews for “adjustment”. Anything is possible 2026: Single Market, alignment up to 90% of EU membership – but one thing won’t be – Rejoin.
& that’s as 2024 election won’t be fought on 2nd referendum.

Johnson (or A.N. Other Brexiteer) will be PM in 2024 – they’ll win any election on 2nd referendum – easily.
Which is why Labour ruled it out. Also not clear EU would be exactly "enthralled" by a non-aligned state suddenly deciding it’ll (re)join EU. You – all of us - need to get smarter. What we all must understand....and fast is:

The road to rejoining the EU runs thru alignment...
Which runs thru 2026 review...
Which depends on 2024 election.

So how do we get there?

We get there by working with we have now – not deluding yourself that you can convince a majority of the population to vote for a 2nd referendum barely 3 years after we left EU.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN

That way lies insanity.

Many remainers whining that altho voting against Boris treaty was pointless “it was important for Starmer to make a pointless principled stand…for me”. This isn’t about you or even the so-called Redwall seats – its about adult politics. Also the idea that Tories will blame Labour for voting for Brexit makes no sense. In fact its really dumb.

1. Its Johnson’s deal.
2. It got a Tory majority.
3. Indeed, more than anything else, Brexit is now Toryism personified.

If things turn sh*t it won’t make it Labour’s Brexit.


What Tories can do, indeed has done - & what has hurt Labour - is depict it as constantly trying to thwart Brexit.
UK is exhausted & wants a deal done even tho, revealingly, a majority think it wont benefit UK.

So, where do you want to go? How can we achieve this?

Here’s how:

1. Win the argument on competence
2. Change narrative to UK being forced into this mess by Boris
3. Don’t offer 2nd referendum but offer “A better deal for Britain”
4. But most all - defeat Johnson’s Tories. I couldn’t care less if that’s thru Lab, LibDems, PC, GRN or SNP

But I tell you won’t you don’t do.

You don’t make a coalition with the 10% of hardcore “Never Starmers” to the point they prefer eternal Tory govt & Brexit rather than Starmer win an election. Which is precisely what I see otherwise sane supposed “centerists” doing now.

The prize is a decent country back in Europe.

We can be halfway, or even more, there by 2026.
But to get there we need to win in 2024.
Just over 3 years away – perhaps less.

So stop wanging on about pointless things or things you can’t change and help make it happen.
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BlindBoyGrunt said:
Nothing to do with the national interest, this deal was going through regardless of the Labour vote. It couldn't fail. However, abstaining would have distanced labour from any future problems. Starmer can't do that now because he whipped his party to support the deal.
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No completely disagree.

There is a national interest angle here, Starmer has done the right thing, no disloyalty to the crown or hints of treason and sabotage like were levelled at Corbyn.

The Tories on here won’t like it I know because it means they will have to construct convoluted arguments up to blame Labour for any problems, but that’s their problem.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Disloyal to the crown, what on earth is that? This was a democratic vote in Parliament.
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We have just become an independent sovereign state again under a Tory PM.

The Tories would have loved to say Labour and Starmer were more interested in being part of a Federal Europe rather than our own country with the good old queenie as head of state.

Starmer is a clever man, he has avoided all these elephant traps superbly.
 
HolgateCorner said:
The Tories would have loved to say Labour and Starmer were more interested in being part of a Federal Europe rather than our own country with the good old queenie as head of state.
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Really, so Starmer's promise of a referendum within 6 months of an election win doesn't count?
Starmer was Mr Remain when it suited him.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Really, so Starmer's promise of a referendum within 6 months of an election win doesn't count?
Starmer was Mr Remain when it suited him.
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Yes but that was then and this is now. Johnson won his Brexit election and put the argument to bed.

Starmer has to try to win an election in four years time and the Tories will do anything to re-ignite the Brexit issue because they have benefitted from it, any hint that Labour want to rejoin and they will be frothing at the mouth because they know it will secure a few extra million votes and get them some more years in power.

I think it’s fairly obvious but my views are based on my intensely cynical view of the Tory Party.
 
Hypothetical but presumably there's a gap for a party to simply stand on a "we will rejoin" platform going forward? Or just do it anyway (avoiding the risk of another easily manipulated referendum)

I also believe the Conservative rhetoric will be just as interesting as Labours going forward. At present it's still the land of milk of honey bull5hit but presumably that will need to change when a) the impacts of the deal begin to be felt and b) it becomes apparent that a conservative government would never use this as an opportunity to level up and inprove the lives of working class voters anyway.
 
changingman said:
Hypothetical but presumably there's a gap for a party to simply stand on a "we will rejoin" platform going forward? Or just do it anyway (avoiding the risk of another easily manipulated referendum)

I also believe the Conservative rhetoric will be just as interesting as Labours going forward. At present it's still the land of milk of honey bull5hit but presumably that will need to change when a) the impacts of the deal begin to be felt and b) it becomes apparent that a conservative government would never use this as an opportunity to level up and inprove the lives of working class voters anyway.
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The Tories will jump whichever way they think the votes are, at the moment that’s in favour of out. They only put Johnson in as leader to offset Nigel Farage wiping them out.

Despite all the fanfares, most of the Tories would have been happy to stay in the EU.
 
So far so good. I did pack my own parachute though just in case. I won't hesitate to bail out of the UK if they screw this up.
 
changingman said:
Hypothetical but presumably there's a gap for a party to simply stand on a "we will rejoin" platform going forward? Or just do it anyway (avoiding the risk of another easily manipulated referendum)

I also believe the Conservative rhetoric will be just as interesting as Labours going forward. At present it's still the land of milk of honey bull5hit but presumably that will need to change when a) the impacts of the deal begin to be felt and b) it becomes apparent that a conservative government would never use this as an opportunity to level up and inprove the lives of working class voters anyway.
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They were never intending to ‘level up’ to the degree that would be necessary, it’s just not in the nature of the most right wing government the country has seen for some time. From what they have been doing since taking power it would appear to be quite the opposite.
All of this empty abstract rhetoric will become apparent when things really start to fall apart. That together with an out of control pandemic, that will need drastic measures to manage, and will perhaps end up with almost wartime style economic measures, with perhaps social control measures that go with it. People are getting more scared, and are unsure of what they’re being told, or who to believe.
It’s then the real politicians will have to stand up. Because it could get very real, very quickly.
 
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